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EFFORTPOST Laughing at a dying company's dying game :marseymeangirls:: The fall of Team Fortress 2 :marseytf2spygenocide:

Hi dramafrens!! :#marseywave2:

Have any of you heard of this obscure little indie game company called Valve? You may have heard of them from niche titles such as:

Half-Life :#marseyfreeman:

Portal :#parrotportalblue::#parrotportalorange:

Only the biggest gaming platform of all time, Steam :steamhappy#:

But today we're talking about a game very close to my heart: Team Fortress 2! :marseytf2heavypat: Valve's hit first person class-based team shooter is an iconic game, earning it a place of glory amongst all vidya and entrenching it in internet and meme culture, and even a somewhat recent meme trend depicting the TF2 characters as buff, totally heterosexual Wagnerite Ziggers has produced some of the shiniest gemeralds of all time :gem:

(video courtesy of @CREAMY_DOG_ORGASM_fan17)

It's really close to my all time favorite game and definitely my most played. Countless hours were sucked from my childhood :marseybib: as baby me learned to use my first slurs whenever I came across a particularly annoying enemy Demoman :marseysnappynraged:

Which is why it's all the sadder that I'm now talking about its spectacular fall from grace.

:marseygrimreaper: The Beginning of the End :marseygrimreaper!:

Meet Your Match :marseybrap:

TF2 had a reputation of being a quite regularly updated game, with a major content release happening around 3-5 times a year. Besides usual gripes from boomers :marseyboomer: these updates were pretty well received, and I certainly have held a positive view of almost all of them although that could just be me yearning for my teenage years.

However, on July 7th of 2016 the most controversial TF2 update to date released: Meet Your Match.

Before this update all TF2 players would play the game through a generic server browser. Valve ran their own public servers right alongside all the community made ones, and filtering for a server you wanted was incredibly easy and streamlined. You could filter by player count, full/empty, whether or not the server used the shitty Valve Anti-Cheat, whether custom decals were allowed, you name it. Everything was hosted on the server browser, it held everything from official Valve servers to servers run by the dregs of society. I fondly remember joining a server when I was about 11 running a map that had furry porn plastered all over the walls :marseybutt2: you never forget your first time, !furries.

So what did Meet Your Match change? Well, it didn't remove the server browser. Not outright. But it did take all official Valve-ran servers off the browser and move them into a shitty matchmaking system :marseybangfast: No longer could you filter for a specific Valve server running your favorite map, you now have to queue up for matchmaking in a party with up to five friends (no more just joining your friends through Steam or the server browser!), have a certain list of maps selected, and pray to god :marseypraying: it lands you in a game within the next 15 minutes. Even worse, since the matchmaking system's job is to get you into a game by any means necessary, it could land you in a game with no players or a game about to end and switch maps to a shitty one you don't like. Additionally those official Valve servers got way shittier, due to the removal of the ability to switch teams, removal of sprays (basically the ability to plaster a custom image onto any surface you want :marseyevilgrin:), and the increasingly outdated Valve Anti-Cheat system being easier to exploit by cheaters. Oh, and those five friends you get to party up with? :marseypolyamory: They will only be on your team, meaning you can only have friendly competition with these friends if somebody gets auto-balanced (which remember is a necessity since you can't change teams manually to even the balance :marseyeyelidpulling:)

That server browser still exists, but it's been relegated to its own separate tab and no longer has any Valve-ran games on it. That would be fine if you don't like Valve servers, (and who would? :marseyno:) but the average TF2 player is just going to hit “find game” and not bother with the server browser, leaving a bunch of half-empty, struggling community servers—not to mention that most of the community servers are shit themselves, but for other reasons; no way in heck am I downloading 13 trillion Touhou reskin mods just to play on a shitty weeb server! :marseysick: :soyno:

The update understandably made a lot of people upset, me included! But we had no idea how much worse it was going to get.

Jungle Inferno, or, Pain of Neglect :marseysleep:

Released on October 20th of 2017, Jungle Inferno was a pretty bog-standard update, as far as things go. A few new weapons, some balances, a few new maps which were mostly shitty, we've all heard it before. The problem? It was the last time Valve would do anything significant with the game. Any updates past Jungle Inferno were repeating seasonal events, and the last Saxxy Awards (the TF2 community's version of the Oscars, where people would create kino animations using Valve's Source Filmmaker) ever to be held to this date :marseycrying:

“But Shelly,” you might ask, “you said there were still seasonal event updates! Surely stuff was being added then, right? :marseynerd2:” Well, yes. But it wasn't Valve. Every Halloween :marseypumpkin: and Christmas :marseyimmaculate: Valve would have some intern scour the top rated maps, cosmetics, weapon skins, and taunts from the community workshop. So surely game's health is in the community's hands, and doing alright, yes? Well…

All of this shit was just bad, frankly. :marseydisagree: Often times the skins had missing textures, the cosmetics were r-slurred and unwanted or even outright broken, the taunts didn't work, all things that could go weeks without being fixed. Besides, hats and skins don't affect the gameplay!

Well maps do affect the gameplay. But they were all shittier even than the skins! A prime example is Wutville, a community made Christmas map. I think I'll let this image of the first attacker spawn and the known bugs list speak for themselves.

https://i.rdrama.net/images/1717794798412777.webp

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17177947989628227.webp

So we have a map that is basically a long, sniper-heaven corridor with no flank routes, tons of bugs, and is a visual fricking mess to boot! :marseyitsallsotiresome: And this is just one extreme example of many broken community maps; don't even get me started on Bread Space, which started the defending team out facing the wrong way, so half the team would obliviously walk the entire way back to their last point in the setup phase! :marseylaugh: It was obvious that Valve was not bothering to playtest anything they were putting into the game, let alone make it themselves.

Why was Valve refusing to work on such an influential title? Despite all their decisions the TF2 player counts were continuing to grow, almost suspiciously so… (more on that later :marseywink:) surely if Valve put in the effort they could bring ever more players in and just get that much more money from anyone participating in its famous economy. It has a lot to do with their company work philosophy: on the outside, they claim to avoid “treadmill work” :marseyeyeroll: and prioritize employee freedom :marseyrevolution: by letting them work on any projects they had passion for. Beneath this stupid pseudo-commie work structure however everyone knew Valve operated on the principle of “Do nothing and let Steam make us infinite money.” They didn't need to work on TF2 because it made them zero billions of dollars. :marseyshrug:

Attack of the Machines :marseysnappyenraged2:

The Sniperbots :marseypedosnipe:

In 2020, there was a source code leak, leading many people to fear the worst. A lot of rumors were in the air at this time, everything from exploits in the code being used to hack accounts to even in-game doxxing. While none of these ever really came true, there was certainly an opportunity for cheaters to exploit a vulnerability in the game. And exploit they did!

A bit of background is needed. Basically there are nine classes in TF2, but out of all of them none is more powerful than the Sniper. With two clicks he can instantly kill 5 out of those 9. In a game played by humans, the main barrier to playing Sniper is the human player's skill and ability to quickly land those instakill headshots. A good player can theoretically steamroll the entire enemy team only by playing Sniper, but nobody but the most turbovirgin autists could ever hope to reach the skill level needed.

A robot though… :marseythinkorino:

With the game's guts on display for the world to see, people naturally quickly made programs that could run an account on TF2 playing sniper, which would proceed to walk straight into combat and land every headshot, wiping the entire enemy team :marseywtf2: but it wouldn't just be one, it would be five, ten, fifteen sniperbots with absolutely zero counterplay pooping up entire game servers. As expected, these bots were also equipped with the latest in slur technology :marseyracist: and would frequently call votekicks on human players :marseyban:

It was a dark time, and still is. These bots are still running around, and the game is absolutely unplayable outside of peak hours. The bots don't stray outside of casual matchmaking so community servers are fine, but the same problems I already highlighted with those servers still exist today :marseysad:

Valve managed to “fix” the slur-spamming problem by removing chat permissions for all free to play players. :marsey1984: I don't think I need to mention why this is a bad idea. In addition to that the bots aren't really fixed, they still flood casual servers and kick every human player out. To this day, it seems Valve has no intention of actually fixing this issue.

#SaveTF2 :soysnoo:

The problem eventually became Reddit's problem. /r/tf2 is the epitome of a modern day vidya subreddit, astroturfed to heck, filled with shitty memes and r-slurred redditors who think they can accomplish anything by making smug comments. Their solution to the bots, the content drought, and the general decline of the game? Be heckin' wholesome 100 about it, and start a hashtag :marseysoylentgrin:

The SaveTF2 movement started with the general goal of getting Valve to fix their darn game. Get rid of the bots was the first priority, and after that people generally thought that Valve would notice TF2 as profitable with the surge of new players coming into a fresh, shiny, bot-free classic game! :marseyglitter: After all, TF2 was still reaching record numbers of concurrent player counts, (:marseywink:) imagine what new heights it could reach from there!

It became fully Redditized incredibly quickly. Constant mentions of Valve and Valve developers on Xwitter, :marseyeyeroll: r-slurred “spread the word” posts all over reddit in unrelated subs, :marseyeyeroll2: and getting the voice actors to go along with their shitty memes :marseyjerkoffsmile: are just a few of the regular Keanu Chungus redditor actions you would expect from such a movement.

The Valve Response :marseylaugh:

In May of 2022, the TF2 Twitter account posted this:

https://twitter.com/TeamFortress/status/1529970640224018433

This lead many to rejoice in the triumph of the SaveTF2 movement. Honestly things were looking pretty… hopeful? Maybe the Reddit activism got to them? After years and years of total radio silence it looked like Valve might actually care about this ‘dead game' that continued to grow.

An update was promised and actually… delivered? In July of 2023, TF2 players got the Summer Update! What was in this update, you ask?

  • Community-made cosmetics

  • Community-made skins

  • Community-made maps

Sound familiar? :marseysmug3: But hey, at least the wholesome reddit seal was added into the game! :wholesomeseal: (No, I'm not joking)

This satisfied the redditors though, and the SaveTF2 movement gradually lost momentum, sputtered, and died. All the while, the bots still ran free.

The Coming of the VLTIMATE TRVTH NVKE

On April 30th of this year, a long time TF2 YouTuber by the name of ZestyJesus woke up and dropped the fattest trvthnvke ever made on the TF2 community:

For those of you who don't want to watch an hour long video, :marseywords: the TL;DR is that after scraping years of data from third party sites and even neurodivergentally collecting his own information, this guy came to a frightening conclusion… You know how I said that despite everything, in spite of the bots, the content drought, the shitty community made updates, in spite of all of it, TF2's player count continued to grow?

In the video, this guy provides pretty darning evidence that over 70% of TF2's reported players… are bots. :marseypearlclutch: But not those sniper bots I've been talking about previously! No, these bots exist specifically to sit in private servers with TF2 running in text-mode (no graphics to reduce RAM usage) and periodically receive item drops, courtesy of Valve's age old gacha system. These bots then sell these items for irl money, inflating both the in-game economy and the reported player counts. The actual player counts? Declining, and had been since Meet Your Match.

ZestyJesus took aim at the Redditors in his closing statements in the video, highlighting how much of a massive failure SaveTF2 was and what an embarrassment it was that the movement lost steam as soon as Valve threw them a bone that looked and tasted exactly like all the other bones they had been thrown for seven years.

So naturally, the redditors crawled out of the woodwork.

#FixTF2: The Redditor Strikes Back :marseysoyhype:

Not taking any hints as to the actual point of the ZestyJesus, some clown by the name of WeezyTF2 releases this video:

Basically he's just saying the movement needs to start again with a different name. TF2 players, still stunned from the TRVTHNVKE fallout, have begun clinging onto this new movement as of late. It basically just involves a lot more whining, which at least does more than the reddit activism they were doing before.

Another YouTuber by the name of shounic, who mostly does explanations of the game's mechanics and code :marseyneko: released this video a mere day ago, highlighting all the barriers to actually fixing the game and all the pitfalls this new movement could fall into:

And at around this time TF2 starts getting massively review bombed!!

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17178024103896744.webp

At least reviews are an actual form of protest. But what about other Valve games? It appears that Half-Life 2 has also been the target of a few stinkers! :marseyshitlover:

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17178024108334153.webp

Surely this will go well.

Conclusion

Redditors suck and I hate them all. I hope Valve does something with my favorite childhood game but honestly I'm not holding my breath. I think Valve realizes they're probably going to make more money from their newest Overwatch-clone slop than they could ever make from fixing TF2.

And if they don't? They have the money. Steam will bail them out.

156
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It's a 17 year old source game neighbors should just let it go

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Yeah :marseydepressed#:

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Anyone expecting Valve to seriously invest development time in a 20 year old version of their engine is r-slurred.

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They just did tho for left for dead 2. They let the community do their updates and bug fixes

Plus the thing with this is that theyre still charging money for the game, and theyre also going to put out a new multiplayer game witb the same anticheat theyre using for TF2. We know that because CSGO got an update and became CS2, and it has now had its cheating/bot problem get worse

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The reason they haven't done that for TF2 is because each one of the (two) times they've tried, they've attracted the biggest, straggiest :marseymerchantsoy:s possible who focus too hard on making goycoin and frick around with project management.

The TF2 community is a bunch of greedy strags, and Valve has decided that they don't wanna babysit them beyond a 3x year patch for homoween christmASS and white boy summer

I would not be surprised if this gets them to bring a few of the good ones:tm: (ae, mastercomms) on to do bugfixing, but the crux of the matter is that fixing this mess is gonna be a massive engineering effort from at minimum like 8 people.

The best chance the game has is shit like steam trust, but that's a decade away at minimum, so it's gonna rot until then (and be presumably brought back to life by the 25 year anniversary update)


Give me your money and I'll annoy people with it :space: https://i.rdrama.net/images/16965516366194396.webp

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Didn't csgo go f2p

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idk and thats immaterial anyway

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!effortposters fantastic 😍 post

Read every word twice

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:#chadthankskingcapy:

Did you ever play TF2 kaamrev? :tayadmire:

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No I was born in a 4th world shihole and still playing Wolfenstein 3D in 2010 on a DOS PC which my mother inherited from my uncle back in 1999, which I inherited from her In 2002 because she needed a windows 95 machine to be able to print word projects from school

I was always the safrican white equivalent of trailer trash and while I certainly wasn't poor (by SA black township standards) I was always behind in gaming and looked on with envy and :marseybeanpensive: :marseypleading2: at my other school friends who games with cool modern shit

But the real thing which made me fall behind on the latest gaming trends or shit and I was never cool 😎 enough for lan invites,

Was that I didn't have internet 🛜 at least for gaming. Back in 2006 internet was at a premium for 650rands for the grand total of 350 megabytes per month

So I basically never played any multiplayer games outside the odd lan invite in highschool once per semester , until I got the magic of fiber internet 🛜 in university in 2012

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You should've played worms and heroes 3 and chop duel and tanks and other hotseat games! There was a lot catering to internetlesscels! Even mortal combat could be played on the same keyboard (tho cheap keyboards would lock up)

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Do nothing and let Steam make us infinite money.

They are very good at doing nothing though, it is a skill few technology companies seem to have anymore

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Valve was incredibly lucky to be in the right place at the right time with the right games to be the get first place in game digital gaming distribution service early in the game.

and yes steam officially released in 2004, while Stardock came out with theirs in 2001 but their games didn't capture like CS and HL did.

Because nothing solidifies your place like sunk cost when the more people buy games on your platform, the more likely they'll stay because all their games are on it.

And when you're the first one to set your roots you win the longer it takes your competition to set their roots like EA with Origin in 2011 (And always fricking it up)

And for decades Valve knows all they have to do is just sit back and make 20%

Which means they have no discipline or structure if they actually want to do something and they say so. They just frick around with whatever projects, maybe. That's it.

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EA had their own launcher around the same time Steam came about. They called it "EA Downloader". It was a piece of shit. Then they rebooted it and called it "EA Link". It was a piece of shit. Then they called it "EA Download Manager". It was a piece of shit. Then they rebooted it and called it "Origin". It was a piece of shit. After a bunch more work, it's now a mostly clean and functional piece of software that tries to do very little but launch your EA games. Most of this stuff happened before Steam was selling much in the way of third party games.

It's not like Valve time traveled and so got the jump on everybody by a decade. All of the established players tried to do the same thing as Steam, and they all did it much worse.

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>EA had their own launcher around the same time Steam came about. They called it "EA Downloader".

That's literally not the same as Steam with the steamstore as we know it. That would be like calling the 200-1 version of steam the official steam. Thats why I brought up the stardock example because they were first with trying to distribute their (mostly shit except for Sins of a Solar Empire) games.

It's not like Valve time traveled and so got the jump on everybody by a decade. All of the established players tried to do the same thing as Steam, and they all did it much worse.

You should read my post all the way through.

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Yeah it's not the same as Steam. In 2005 when EA Downloader came out Steam was a functional piece of software that let you download your Vakve games. EA Downloader was buggy spyware that didn't let you download your EA games because it was broken.

What's your point?

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This is bs, valve actually does shit. Steam is pretty much the best platform for gaming, and they have poured infinite money into getting gaming on linux to be smoother, not to mention their well-received VR shit. But no, they are not a game company anymore.

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This is bs, valve actually does shit

>But no, they are not a game company anymore.

:#marseyspecialtalking:

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Are you r-slurred? A company can do other great things than games

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Yeah, we're talking about games, sweetheart. Thank you for keeping up

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Darn that first video is beyond depressing. Frickin Dead Internet Theory level shit. It's ridiculuous that this amount of negligence can be tolerated by people

The one question that's still on my mind though is why? It can't be profitable. Prices of ref and crates are consistently going down, 2/3rds of them allegedly come from botted sorces themselves which means just the mere action of botting them decreases their price, while the interest in the game is slowly decreasing creating even less demand for them. This isn't free money, hosting these huge botfarms comes at a cost, so what the heck is their purpose?

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I forget if it was shounic or a more recent ZestyJesus video, but it goes more in depth into the actual logistics of running a botfarm. The main reason is usually something like “$10 is generational wealth if you're a Zigger or a Turkroach”

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I guess the moral of the story here for any aspiring game designer is: If your game has a system that rewards users for playing and allows for exchange of said rewards for cash through markets- do not make it available in poor countries

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I guess the moral of the story here for any aspiring game designer is: If your game has a system that rewards users for playing and allows for exchange of said rewards for cash through markets-do not make it available in poor countries, frick brown people

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The bots come from Russia and India where the value of the dollar is way higher. I think these bot accounts collect the weapons and items, craft them into metal and then give the metal to the whales who trade in TF2 as metal can be used to buy stuff worth a lot more like keys and hats

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I just don't think :marseyhyperthonk: games :marseygamer: were meant to run forever, after like 5 years (or a decade at most) everyone :marseynorm: should :marseynorm: get bored :marseyunamused: of online :marseyidio3: and migrate somewhere new

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Certainly. I don't want the game to die but I also realize eventually it's going to have to.

Just not like this, please :marseysulk:

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Counter-Strike is still banging away.

:marseyboomer:

That's because TF2 sucks. :marseysmug:

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Counter-Strike actually has the same bot problem lmao, it runs on the same engine that the TF2 source leak suffered from.

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Difference is though Volvo is attempting to purge the CS bots, i know some case farmers and in the past couple months Volvo have been on the war path.

Coordinated mass targeted ban only going after case farming bots.

Which is good for me and my cases investments as every y dead bot is thousands of cases taken from circulation

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Haven't played it in years; don't care. It's better.

:marseycool:

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MvM was the last fun update I can remember it should've petered out around then

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everquest has 27 expansions

besides modern online games essentially reinvent themselves every year

nobody plays 2010 league its 2024 league

same with wow apex fortnite (more like every 2 weeks in this case) idk about dota

its just valve being clueless (common post portal thing) same with cs2 lol

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League prime :marseycertifiedangus: example, after like S4 it was never :marseyitsover: going :marseysal2: to get better :marseygenetakovic: or more interesting :marseylaying:

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Wrong, they added pride month event.

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besides modern online games essentially reinvent themselves every year

And that's an issue. No risks are being taken. The underlying design decisions are still the same.

CS has the same weapons & gameplay still existing with de_ maps - where are the reinventions with es_/as_/cs_ maps? WoW is still tab target combat. Dota2 is still the same 3 lanes, Roshan on a timer, tons of old items, ... It's iteration, not reinvention.

A TF2 update will have the same classes with every boring thing that this brings with it.

We can obviously blame Valve for not developing & trying shit with new games. But not keeping an old game alive indefinitely? Good choice.

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Alright and? People still play Quake MP

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Dota has changed a lot over the years, a lot more than league did I think. They really do try to make big changes once in a while so it doesn't get stale

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Keep yourself safe

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Just consume new thing...nah frick that

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TF2 could legitimately run forever if they undid their last couple shitty patches and found a way to get rid of bots.

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All they need to do is:

  • Nerf the 3 weapons left that're super mega gay and unfun (Vaxx, Wrangler, Short Circuit)

  • Allow adhoc connections to casual servers, so you can join your buddies

  • Re-enable team switching in casual (but make it play a "BOOO" sound server wide and put a message in chat if you join a team that has someone dominating you on it :marseyrapscallion: )

  • Make the servers not restart if the map's the same post-vote

  • Remove Random Crits (only part of the game that didn't age well. mega gay homo shit)

And the game would be pretty much gold for the next 20 years. Assuming there's no cheaters. More minor stuff like nerfing sniper secondaries (or sniper in general, he's kinda lame. not powerful, just lame) would be nice, but not required.

Big assumption, though. I don't think it'd be possible to make a good enough anti-cheat for the game, anymore. it's far too past it's prime :marseydepressed:


Give me your money and I'll annoy people with it :space: https://i.rdrama.net/images/16965516366194396.webp

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Crits are cool

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Just go ahead and delete sniper that'd be great Thanksss.

Actually shouic or w.e his name had an interesting YouTube video on how to balance sniper—with the most “fair” change being that snipers would project a “laser pointer” line across the map when scoped in.

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Nintendo did it https://i.rdrama.net/images/17178892213619468.webp

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imo the issue with sniper is how well long range instakill hitscan synergizes with being able to hide behind a heavy, and a sentry. sniper isn't that big of an issue in 6s because you can just bomb the sniper but in hl/pubs a soldier has to deal with 9 billion times more bullshit to kill a sniper if he is playing smart.

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That wouldn't matter, if you've played a map more than a handful of times you already know where the sniper is.

Sniper's really only an issue if you're playing Highlander. Which every TF2uber plays so they all zero in on that.

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His testing says otherwise

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I'm not watching his video but I already know how it plays out because that's this is just a lesser version of scope glint (with the laser you can just aim at a wall to hide it, like every sniper already does with the dot). TFC had a visible laser too iirc. It just adds visual clutter, encourages bunkering down, and punishes snipers who try to do anything but peak sightlines. Battlefield needs this because the map's 300 square miles but this isn't the case in TF2.

The problem in TF2 with the sniper isn't that you can't find him. It's that on some maps the sightlines are long enough that you can't deal with him if you aren't playing sniper (which is why a lot of comp maps mod out really long sightlines). He's supposed to be balanced by the opportunity cost of choosing him but Highlander removes this, which is a flaw with the format but it tends to have outsized representation among TF2 e-celebs.

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#MinecraftForever

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!commenters

There is still hope :marseyhearts#:

Writing this post got me pretty down but also made me think a lot about TF2 again. Just for giggles I booted it up and, skipping the casual matchmaking, went straight to the community server browser.

And what I found there shone like a gem among coal :gem: I found the SOYTOPIA server!! :cobsondance:

!zoomers GODS we are so

back

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!g*mers hes cracked :#marseybooba:

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No he isn't

He didn't have higher than a 1 KS in 80% of the clips lol

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he didnt use his ult

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The quality is too low for me to see his K/D lol

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He has a little >> next to his name which country his killstreak

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That wasn't in the game when I played it 15 years ago :marseybeanannoyed:

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:marseyeggirl: :wolfpicrew:

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The day of the random crit can't come soon enough

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Is this kogastopia or a different chuddy server?

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I went on kogastopia like three times and the last time I joined I heard everyone in vc talking about child porn :marseydisgusted:

This is SOYTOPIA - THREMBO

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is uncle dane a bad guy? i vaguely remember seeing his videos eons ago

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P-do

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a common theme with the word Dane

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He's yt

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His servers don't allow slur usage, so yes.

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I feel there's a certain something to TF2 that's never quite been replicated by other games. Something about the combination of goofy casualness and extremely high skill ceiling. I feel like you could say that about a lot of other games too, but none of them felt like it. Maybe it's because of the cultural impact of the game at its time, or maybe it's just nostalgia. Either way I've been sad to see its downfall but it's been happening for a long time. It's been on low-maintenance mode for years and years, and hoping that Valve will come back and fix it seems like a pipe dream after this long.

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Unironically the games with the highest skill ceiling are invariably games intended for casual play. Once developers start intending competitive play and balancing around that they remove things that could be considered fun or silly. All the classes have, to some degree, some central skill you can practice that rewards good timing and situational awareness. Sure, some are more high-skill than others (rocket jumping and trickstabs versus airblast) but everyone has something and it all has a niche. And on the other end, you have "fun" weapons (like the Caber, or Heavy's Christmas gloves) that are ostensibly a meme but a good player can shitpost by dominating with it anyways.

Now look at CounterStrike. Or DotA 2. Or the leaked videos of Deadlock. Heck, look at Meet Your Match. The skill-ceiling for some of them is high enough but for the most part everything is equalized in the name of "balance". God forbid you allow rocket jumping in fricking Overwatch; let's just give everyone ultimate abilities that do all the skill stuff for them!

You can watch as games like StarCraft, Tribes, etc all chased the "hey people want to play this competitively so we should cater to them..." and then killed their skill ceilings and skill floors in the process.

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yeah its cool how the game has epic friendly pootis players, a long lasting competitive scene, and everything in between. Imo, the big thing behind tf2's skill ceiling is the movement/physics mechanics that every class can take advantage of. Other class/hero shooter's movement abilities are locked to a single character and don't influence other people's movement whatsoever. in tf2,every class can airstrafe and take knockback from explosives and hitscan,so even if you aren't scout/soldier/demo, you can still do cool movement stuff like surf an enemy's rocket to safety. The game's heavy focus on single shot weapons works perfectly with source movement too. As a scout, your double jumps are basically a noob trap until you learn how to airstrafe, but airstrafing requires you to move your mouse around, which means that you couldnt airstrafe and shoot at people if he had an automatic weapon. Since he has a shotgun though, you're free to airstrafe around between shots while you spam your double jump like a mongoloid.

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Good job bobby, here's a star

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I wonder why the TF2/Melee "casual with deep competitive implications" design doesn't seem to fly with players anymore. TF2 and Melee for example both have unplayably bad characters in a competitive setting, but when a character is that terrible in, say, League's 170-character roster, it's seen as an unforgivable sin by players.

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I used to play both a lot, they're just pure fun and only get more fun when you get better cause you're basically just "unlocking" new abilities (wavedash, rocket jumping, etc.) by just playing and having fun and getting better the whole time. You can go from casual n00b to sweaty tryhard and it just keeps getting more fun since the core gameplay is solid and lets you be expressive.

So it's a feedback loop of fun -> improve -> more fun -> more improve that 99% of "competitive" games can't replicate cause their games aren't actually that fun to begin with they just keep a drip feed of content and heroes and unlocks going to mask that fact.

Agree we need more games in the "casual competitive" space - but we need good studios first.

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but when a character is that terrible in, say, League's 170-character roster, it's seen as an unforgivable sin by players.

It's the opposite and that attitude carries over to Overwatch a lot because of the mass migrations from League. For them, it's normal for some characters to be considered bad and unplayable since this is a "natural" part of how the League meta works. They would be very against any off-meta characters and get mad if you picked them (compounded by the fact that when I played Overwatch there wasn't a scoreboard so you never had any idea what your teammates were doing and had to fill in the gaps yourself).

TF2 and DotA2 players had much more of an “Anything can work” attitude even if it wasn't necessarily true.

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God forbid you allow rocket jumping in fricking Overwatch; let's just give everyone ultimate abilities that do all the skill stuff for them!

It's because these games are designed for consoles. You can't rocket jump on a controller or be able to aim above a certain speed so they have to bake everything in a button press.

I know the 12 people who were still playing TFC in 2007 made the same accusations when TF2 removed grenades but the Orange Box was really obviously a second thought because half the classes are borderline unplayable.

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It's the skill celing combined with skill expression. sure, you can click heads and wipe a lobby in CS, but you can't make it fat in the same way you can in TF. it has way less ways to style on the other team, which is :marseygiveup:


Give me your money and I'll annoy people with it :space: https://i.rdrama.net/images/16965516366194396.webp

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It felt like high skill floor and high ceiling. I could never be an automatic head clicking sniper but I could always do okay as soldier or scout or demo. Worst case if I was really doing poorly or just wanted to relax engineer and medic were simple enough. I haven't played in 7 or 8 years but I probably put 250+ hours in it

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I've never played TF2. That being said, I'm willing to bet that Expiration Date created more meme lines per minute than any other video in internet history. Funny thing about it is that Valve was already showing how lazy they were. They reached out to Adult Swim in 2012 saying we'd like to make a TF2 show. Adult Swim said sure, make 12 episodes. Two years later, they've made a 15 minute pilot and that's it. Adult Swim says screw this, pulls the plug, and Valve releases the pilot on Youtube, which was this video.

:marseyantiwork:

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miss pauling rules

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rDrama, what's your favorite class?

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Medic is the true !femboys class :marseyfemboy:

But Pyro is the ancestral !furries spirit :marseyfurry:

Who do I pick? :derpwhy:

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Behold!

The average rdrama femboy

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17178148748289313.webp

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!bottoms confirm

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Wouldn't mind looking like that, honestly.

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its DHT time

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I use that + A Brush with Death + Das Gutenkutteharen, I have gigachad medic :marseyretardchad:

Also that cosmetic (Burly Beast) is worth like a couple hundred dollars now, it was like 15 bucks when I bought it LOL

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17178630319518793.webp (pls ignore cringe weapon names)

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looksmaxxed medic build

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dr s*x (canonical)

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Scout is the femboy class

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Demoman

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:n#:

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maybe you should play something vampire themed, turncoat

:marseyannoyed:

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Soldier because you a real g*mer

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>scout mains

:#marseykys2:

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Oh, you missed me again chucklenuts? :marseysmug2:

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/17178141138261576.webp

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Runnin around double jumping and whacking ppl w a bat was always too fun. Scout fo sho

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Its tough but my tops are

1. Spy - its fun fricking with people and engi stuff

2. Sniper - Enjoy headshots especially men vs bots the power up s where headshots do AoE damage is cool.

3. Engi - Love building turrets in choke points.

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