EFFORTPOST My hatred of types of Locked content in games, Supreme Autismo Longpost Rant :marseytrollcrazy: :marseytrollcrazy: :marseytrollcrazy: :marseytrollcrazy: :marseytrollcrazy: Pathfinder: WotR - Secret Ending Sneed :marseyautism:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=aopjvvAtViA

Disclaimer: This is a rant and will probably be be boring and contain no drama, sorry guyz :marseywave2: :marseywave2: :marseywave2:


OWLCAT:

Owlcat is the double AA indie company which published the recent Pathfinder: kingmaker and Pathfinder: Wrath of the righteous games, with also the recent 40K: Rogue Trader game, usually they are my favorite publisher, but basically they made a secret ending so fricking complex and batshit insane , that I've been spending the past 24 hours using (wasting) my lifespan on the Pathfinder subreddits and forums,

bitching about how the fricking Secret ending riles me up so much beyond reason and how my mouth-foaming :marseychainsmoker: :marseychainsmoker: :marseychainsmoker: :marseychainsmoker: reaction to it is so wildly disproportionate to its actual importance to the world and life at large, but then again this site informs us to blow shit as wildly out of proportion as feasible, so I'm GOING TO :marseytrollgun: :marseytrollgun: :marseytrollgun: :marseytrollgun:

I've been having discussions with other straggots who've managed to complete this secret ending, who've accused me of being salty of not being able to figure it out myself, which is what has had me SEETHING and COPING and DILATING the entirety of last night :marseycope: :marseycopeseethedilate: :marseycopeseethedilate: :marseycopeseethedilate: :marseycopeseethedilate: :marseycopeseethedilate: :marseycopeseethedilate: :marseycopeseethedilate:


SECRET ENDING GUIDE VIDEO DROPPED:

This is in response to the even more hardcore community in the Pathfinder: WOTR community after, youtuber dropping a definitive guide to actually obtain the fricking much vaunted and gossiped about Secret Ending of the WOTR game, which had infamy since the games release back in SSeptember 2021, so the game is pretty much 3.5ish years old already at this point.

The youtuber in question, MortisimalGaming, has carved his niche as the premier CRPG game reviewer, and also being unique in the gayming reviewer space by actually 100% percenting fricking games, via obtaining all steam achievements, if achievements or trophies are a thing in said game, as you can imagine his autism functions on an entirely other level from average mortals, which is very impressive as according to himself he's actually a father, and has a son (What's your excuse dramatards! :marseysunflower:) Despite his impressive steam Achievement portfolio, he maintains humility and claims that he considers himself not to really be a hardcore g*mer, or even especially good/talented, and merely that his literal occupation as a gaymer-tuber enables him indefinite time to lay siege to games, and obtain experience as to how game devs have their design philosophies cracked to be able to defeat challenges which would turn away average mortals.

He especially made a name for himself as someone who made very useful guides for Pathfinder and Larians' Divinity: Original Sin 2. So he has that turbo nerd cred in CRPGS :marseynerd2: :marseynerd2: :marseynerd2: :marseynerd2:

So you guys need to comprehend the sheer levels of autism required to know these things, and for people to follow them, they are neurodivergents to neurodivergents, to what neurodivergents are to normal people!


OBSCURE FORUM SLAPFIGHTS:

On forums I wont name, there had even been arguments that the Secret Ending of WOTR (Wrath of the Righteous) didn't exist, or was too fricking convoluted to figure out, or was even fricking bugged for many to complete. Since September 2021, many completionists even bitched and complained that the extreme and highly specific actions one must perform to fricking unlock the Secret Ending of WOTR, and there had been minor turbo-autism slapfights :slapfight: :slapfight: frick-you-got-mine peeps who had somehow obtained the achievement, and those that were seeking it.

Many people didn't even believe or know the fricking secret ending existed, until people datamined the game and found a Steam Achievement for it or utilized Unity Mods to data mine the fricking game and discover flags that needed to be triggered in ingame events, similar as to the Biowhere Mass Effect game where you needed to complete actions to enable the ability to even unlock choices later ingame.

And again, due to the size and complexity of WOTR, there had been a metric shitload :marseylifting: :marseylifting: :marseylifting: :marseylifting: of bugs which affected anything from abilities not doing what they described, to literal pivotal plot points to proccing because of bugs - Literally up until last month, massive gaming overhaul bugs and pathes, literally more than 3 years since release, have involved fixing game mechanics not working as intended or dialogue bugs.

For many the entire Secret Ending was impossible, because bugs would prevent specific needed plot interactions at just one specific moment, meaning if they fricking did just that one thing wrong, the rest of their actions working towards the secret ending was entirely moot.

There had been guides to the secret ending, but prior to MortisimalGaming's guide, they had all been flawed, outdated or didn't take into consideration of bugs, cuz the writer themselves weren't affected by them. So Mortisimal dropped a mini nuke yesterday. :marseynukegoggles: :marseynukegoggles: :marseynukegoggles: :marseyoppenheimer: :marseyoppenheimer: :marseyoppenheimer: with how comprehensive and complete his guide is, especially after Owlcat devs fixed most of the plot bugs after 3 years.


SECRET ENDING HAS LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG REQUIREMENTS:

And oh my god - just to make the rest of you neurodivergents on rDrama.net understand the level of autism involved in this shit - the video which I know none of you will click on, is a colossal 35 fricking minutes lonnnnnng :marseylong1: :marseylong2: :marseylong3: :marseyllama1: :marseyllama2: :marseyllama3: :carplong1: :carplong2: :carplong3:

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374073413296.webp

Just to make you guys appreciate the monumental amount of shit you guys have to do right accomplish this secret ending.

The effort to do this to unlock the secret ending, is wildly, wildly, wildly, wildy, wildly disproportionate to accomplish this. What's even more when i verbalized this frustration (autism) to other frickers on Pathfinder forums they just blocked me or told me it was totally easy and reasonable.

I'm going to waste your lifespan explaining why this shit made me :marseyrage: :marseyrage: :marseyrage: :marseyrage: :marseyrage: :marseyrage:


PATHFINDER KINGMAKER HAD SIMILAR ISSUES:

Back when Pathfinder: Kingmaker was released, it also had a secret ending, which the devs explicitly alluded to in their Kickstarter campaign, when they as an indie company had no capacity to fund themselves out of pocket, and they had actually went to monumental effort to both create this secret ending, to cater to their biggest kickstarter patrons.

https://i.rdrama.net/images/1720437407481423.webp

When Pathfinder: Kingmaker was released back in 2018, like many CRPGs riding on the renewal of Obsidians Pillars of Eternity, they were overly ambitious in their inclusion of their Kingdom Management simulator portion of their game, and ironically this Kingdom Management was very unpopular and very controversial for many customers and even original Kickstarter backers.

The Kingdom Management was so controversial that it divided the fanbase, and actually almost cost the fricking devs sales of the game, as early reviews were so largely negative, stating that the actual adventuring and RPG mechanics was fun, but its tethering towards the Kingdom simulation basically made them stop playing or even refund the game!! :marseysmokealarmbeep: :marseyscream: :marseyscream: the poor devs were forced to spring into lightning speed, to create an option to automate the Kingdom Management, to entirely skip this shit. :marseyoptimusprime: I don't know if this was during the Early access phase as it was during my time at university.

But even this automated Kingdom button would be controversial :marseyoverseether: :marseyoverseether: :marseyoverseether: Because basically, the actual events of you deciding with your advisors, and determining whether your kingdom would be evil or orderly was interesting and well written, and the manner in which you as a burgeoning new fantasy ruler have to deal with various crisis was intriguing,

BUT THE AUTOMATED setting meant that the fricking game made default choices for you, and bypassing much choice which was equally unsatisfying and COMPLETELY removed the roleplaying from the Kingdom :marseyking: :marseykingsmug:part of the game which was pretty baked into the rest of the game, so you WERE missing out on a great deal of story and roleplay if you fricking went with this option.

It was a lose lose situation.


https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/252382-pathfinder-kingmaker-definitive-edition/78928689

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374081183732.webp

"Just know that in making it auto you will forfeit receiving any accomplishments that are normally granted by doing it yourself. Not sure what accomplishments as of yet tho.. I also don't know if you still need to visit your kingdom once a month if it's set to auto"

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374084030066.webp


https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/cff5a0/game_would_have_been_more_fun_without_kingdom/

https://i.rdrama.net/images/1720437407918308.webp

"Beneath The Stolen Lands is so much more fun than the main game that I can't progress past the 2nd chapter in it because management sucks. I wish the game was like NWN1/2 with more of an adventure/crawl rather than loads of dice roll events trying to frick you every month in your Kingdom where Advisors will fail due to bad RNG and then continue to fail as they become worse."

"Auto is not a solution as you no longer have a say in anything and it ruins roleplaying. The management would have been fine if it had a "Off" button where failure in events and game overs relating to it were disabled but you coud still make choices and customize your kingdom in the usual way."

https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/cff5a0/game_would_have_been_more_fun_without_kingdom/eu9hql7/?context=8

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374086114576.webp

"The only issue I have with Kingdom Management is that it's all stick and no carrot. Aside from a vague relationship between the kingdom stats and the artisans, you don't really get anything from having a booming kingdom versus one on the verge of revolt."

"If higher kingdom stats increased the number of merchants in your capital, conferred bonus stats on your party members, or had some other mechanical interaction with the game; I would consider it much less of a nuisance. There are the projects that give you bonuses while in your claimed lands, but pretty much every new chapter takes you out of your land so they never really matter. Artisans are nice, but their random nature makes them questionable - especially on a first run where you don't really know what you're getting from them."

https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/3393916911755161624/

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374076255665.webp

"Yeah they really really need to either let all your "potential" advisors actually take part to keep up with all the events if you are on top of things or, they need to make it so that all events pop up at the beginning of the month. I suppose its not really realistic but, neither is having an event pop on the 30th that will auto fail once it rolls over to the first of the month."

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374077541552.webp


KINGDOM MANAGEMENT SUX:

The issue was that this Kingdom Management was possibly one of the worst of rulership simulations ever created in the entirety of gaming. In a vacuum it would be fine if not enjoyable, but the manner in which you as a player are introduced to fricking the management mechanics is horrific and highly cruel and unfair.

You received staggered information on the importance of significant mehcanics, like your need of Advisors which are critical, and critical to get as early as humanly possible. The game doesn't inform you, but basically you are in a massive stress inducing timer :marseychainsmoker: :marseychainsmoker: :marseychainsmoker: :marseychainsmoker: :marseychainsmoker: the very moment you begin the campaign, and if you camp spam too much, you will enable time to pass to much to the point of no return.

You as a fricking 1st time player will never know this, and for 90% of players, for whom this will be their 1st and ONLY playthrough, will only realize this calamity 20 hours into the game, past the point of no return, and when it is beyond their capacity to salvage their situation.

In the early game, in the 1st chapter, the way you are SUPPOSED to play, is make a beeline straight towards all Advisors to unlock their capacity to govern your various different parts of your government. You AS A Green fresh faced new will not know this, will not know that you are on a timer, or even WHERE on the overwolrd map to find them, or even that there will exist departments in your governments to fricking need a post in lategame.

Depending on which routes you take on the overworld, you will obtain needed Advisors based on pure fricking luck if you go in blindly. Even guides covering the RPG character builds dont often warn players of this critical fact. :marseytrollcrazy: :marseytrollcrazy: :marseytrollcrazy:

And why is this critical?! Especially early game? Because the Kingdom Management will throw crises at you with incrementally more difficulty, which if you need to level your Advisors against over time. If you are up shit creek because your advisors were discovered too late, and have not been able to level them up in tandem with the increasingly difficulty of crisis management, then you will very quickly find a point of no return. Because guess the fun part of this shit :marseyrage: Your Advisors ONLY levels up on successful crisis handling,

meaning if you fail even ONCE :marseyembrace: :marseyexcited: :marseyexcited: you will initiate the cockup cascade into your eventual demise, and if your underleveled Advisor, whom you had no way of fricking knowing would be important down the line was underleveled , then the cockup cascade is basically guaranteed :marseyexcitedgif: :marseyexcitedgif: :marseyexcitedgif: :marseyrage: :marseyrage:

Basically the game would retroactively severely punish for suboptimal decisions you had made for as many as 20-30 hours, when you literally didn't even know you were making a decision at the time.


LONGTERM RETROACTIVE PUNISHMENTS:

It reminded me of X-COM which was a semi-roguelike which explicitly had baked in its design philosophy to have the player fail down the line, but to manage failure against success, I really fricking hated his game :marseyexcited: :marseyexcited: :marseyexcited: it too would punish you 20 hours down the line, and past the point of no return.

It reminded me of why RTS genre games would be by order of magnitudes less popular than regular shooters or other multiplayer games. If you lose or screw up or make a mistake, you are punished immediately and the consequences are inconsequentially short - you go back to teh starting line.

But if you make a mistake on an RTS game, even and usually especially a single player campaign, you will only realize your mistake maybe 1 hour into play, and will realize a suboptimal choice your had made strategically in the very beginning of the game is now retroactively punishing you 1 hour into the game, leaving you to the slow burn RTS death or quitting, yet even such a setback only ever takes an hour or afternoon of your lifespan.

What was especially aggravating and cruel about Pathfinder: Kingmaker's bullshit Kingdom Management, was that you would be :marseybattered: :carpwhip: :carpwhip: :carpwhip: punished retroactively into the game, for as much as 20-40 hours of gameplay! For a bad choice you didn't know you were making. For traditional games, or games which aren't as ruthless as XCOM, you pick yourself up from the dust and just fricking restart the mission. But for Kingmaker, you would effectively be throwing away 40 hours of play, and even if you willed yourself to fricking restart all the grueling effort, and wasting through plot twists which you thus already know now with hindsight, ruining the retread :marseyitsallsotiresome: :marseyitsallsotiresome: :marseyitsallsotiresome: - this basically has a design philosophy in competing areas, to test your roleplay of a character against forewarned knowledge just to succeed in the fricking, which is NOT roleplaying :marseybeanannoyed: :marseybeanannoyed: :marseybeanannoyed: :marseybeanannoyed:

Even Dark Souls, is never this punishing to players (also it's not that hard, KEEP YOURSELF SAFE FromSoftsFantrags), the actual moment to moment failure maybe robs you of 1/2 hour of your life. And even crap builds can be and are expected to play through by the core design philosophy of Dark soulshit.

I really fricking despise thee notion of having your endeavor in a game be pointless, and especially despise the notion of being Retroactively be punished by devs, which is also why I personally hate Roguelikes.


PLOT OF KINGMAKER:

The other important thing which raised some :slapfight: :slapfight: :slapfight: in the CRPG shadows of the internet, was the difficult and convoluted manner in which peeps were able to unlock the secret ending of the game, which was similarly complex, but not nearly to the same degree as that of WOTR.

Summary of :eaglebikini: PLOT: Basically you and a bunch or brokeass mercenary strags are hired by Aldori dorks to subdue the massive banditry of the Stolen Lands :marseyrobber: :platypirate: and hopefully induce some level of stability into this historically unstable shithole, and as rewards, whichever loser mercenaries succeed and survive would be acknowledged and raised as a Baron/Baroness of the region by the neighbours of the Stolen Lands they just "conquered" to basically be their backyard buffer against banditry.

Your straggy main character becomes a Baron/ess and thus must thus play Sim City from Heck in the next 5 years, and basically put out the fires :onfire: :onfire: :onfire: :marseynecklace: :marseynecklace: :marseynecklace: :flamethrower2: :flamethrower2: :onfire2: :onfire2: of calamity after calamity, as your new fledgling Barony appears to have the worst case of Bad Luck on the entire fricking planet, and is just fricking besieged by problems beyond counting. You manage sewage in the morning and fight off bandit invaders in the afternoon, and it appears like your new nation state is just filled to the brim with fricking 5th columnists :marseycomradecry: :marseytrotsky: hellbent of sabotaging your new nationbuilding project at every turn, and you also have to stop invasions of Fey Fairy frickers from the Fairy Fey dimension (not joking)

Basically it seems like the fricking Gods are fricking conspiring to burn down your new young Barony, and mid-game plot twist, after having faced off hordes or rampaging bandits, trolls and Barbarians (Micks :marseyhibernian:), you find out to your disbelief that there ACTUALLY ARE demigods conspiring to r*pe your kingdom to the ground!

The plot twist is that Narissa, a sexy Fey dryad treelady :carpmermaid: :marseybutt: :marseyfoxxylove: chick, whom helped you from the very beginning of the game to overthrow the Bandit King to establish your Barony in the 1st place, is also conspiring to overthrow your new Barony as well. And has been behind every turn and twist and invasion and calamity which has befallen your Barony since you took charge!

The end game has you kill this cc*nt to finally establish peace and prosperity in the Region of the Stolen Lands, and you become a good/bad/r-slurred ruler whatever.

The super duper SECRET ending of the game, is you finding out WHY Narissa has been sabotaging not just your new Kingdom and that of the Bandit King before you arrived on the scene, but basically EVERY single kingdom and nation state in the Stolen Lands for the literal past 1000 years. In FACT you realize that the very reason the Stolen Lands have been so historically unstable and prone to banditry and chaos and shit has been because of Narissa all along!!!!!! :marseyscream: :marseyscream: :marseyscream: And that she has basically sabotaged the nationbuilding of every single nation state ever endeavored in the region for the past millennium acting as this demigod 5th columnist over and over, breaking and sabotaging every single concurrent state or kingdom after one another.

You find out WHY the frick :marseywtf: :marseywtf: :marseywtf: she would do this in the SECRET ending, as she had been cursed and her own Fey kingdom been cursedraped by the super straggy Lantern King in Feytopia (another dimension connected to your fantasy world, where the barrier was weak in the Stolen Lands) because she had made a failed coup against another Fey someshit

As punishment, she has to fill a magic jar with the grains of sand, where very single grain of sand represents ONE KINGDOM which she must destroy, in order to undestroy her magic Fey kingdom in turn, and thus she has been in constant 5th columnisting in the Stolen Lands for the past 1000 years.

======

It's a pretty good ending and extra story with a full extra 10 fricking hours of gameplay and fights after the traditional ending after you defeat Narissa. You can even redeem Narissa or romance the b#tch if you are an evil overlord!! (WHICH I DID BY THE WAY) :marseyinsane: :marseyinsane: :marseyinsane: :bite:


PAINFUL REQUIREMENTS SUX:

My problem?!!!!! :marseyschizotwitch: :marseyschizotwitch: :marseyschizotwitch: :marseyschizotwitch: :marseyschizotwitch: :marseytrollgun: :marseytrollgun: :marseytrollgun: :marseytrollgun: Ulocking this super fricking r-slurred ending is in my opinion too convoluted and r-slurred and unfair1!!!111!!!!

Some buttholes on the sub or forum would be like "get gud" and how THEY totally fricking easily got the secret ending of Kingmaker and how it was all :marseybigbrain: logical and shit, and only subhumans :brainletpit: could not figure out how to unlock the Secret ending, and I was like

:marseykys2: :marseykys2: :marseykys2: :marseykys2: :marseykys2: :marseykys2:

Because I actually DID UNLOCK THE SECRET UNDING in my 1st playthrough of Kingmaker, even as I was getting anally keelhauled by the Kingdom Management system, but the r-sluration was that I had done so with pure fricking unadulterated luck, I didn't accomplish it through any amount of thinking or logic or intuition or choices, I just stumbled my way through the right choices like and idiot-savant-r-slur and this ENRAGED MEEEEEEEEEEE :marseyrage: :marseyrage: :marseyrage: :marseyrage:

Because was just as likely to fail as succeed and would have been robbed of the choice 100 hours into the game had i been luckless enough not to have fricking made the right choices to unlock the Secret Ending in Kingmaker, and the ability to prone-bone the Fey tart :pepoboner: :pepoboner: :pepoboner: :marseyskeleton: :marseyskeleton: :marseyskeleton:

I am willing to bet half of the buttholes who got the steam Achievement :marseywinner: of completing the secret ending had only done so with luck, and 50% sure as heck didn't obtain it through skill or reasoning :marseybeanannoyed:

Like look at this shit to do it right!!

https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-kingmaker/guides/Best_Ending

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374088292232.webp

LIKE LOOK AT THE SHEEEER AMOUNT OF SHIT YOU HAVE TO DO :marseytrollcrazy: :marseytrollcrazy: :marseytrollcrazy:

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374091297007.webp

https://www.pcg*mer.com/the-long-road-to-the-secret-ending-of-pathfinder-kingmaker/

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374092782502.webp

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374094886127.webp

Also you can secret romance the Badguy Narissa at the end if you're evil enough, and some had comments about her:

On a Steam forum thread where players theorized about the possibility, one suggested you'd be better off romancing literally any other NPC, since they "don't look like lettuce." A player who was more intrigued by the possibility replied, "She has 36 in charisma so she is a good looking lettuce." :marseyxd: :marseyxd: :marseyxd: :marseyxd: :marseyxd: :marseyxd: :marseyxd:


Now normally an ambitious game which creates content fearless if it will be missed by many, and is antithetical to games like Skyrim which hold your hand with markers, I would like.

After all many peeps complained that even story driven games like Life Is Strange have railroading throughout its plot, and many choices don't have meaning anyways,

But I hate this type of content blocking just as much, because you as a player may never even be able to KNOW that you were at a point in making a choice or your inaction would lock you off from a Secret Ending, and thus be retroactively punished by a game like Kingmaker by as much as 90 fricking hours worth of playtime, realizing too late you can't go back and change your decision!!!!


RAILROAD BLOCKS:

I found this comment chain on a sub which perfectly encapsulates and verbalizes my frustration with this problem.

On the surface the ambition of these indie devs should be infinitely more celebrated over camp Triple AAA story slop where minor inconsequential choices never seem to affect the outcome of the main story in Developers like TellTales games, which have been accused of such, but are still highly revered by their main fanbase regardless.

Because it is the ultimate INVERSE problem, where you are railroaded too steeply in TellTale and other story games, instead it is TOO easy to block yourself out of specific lategame Secret endings like in Owlcat because you didn't fricking adhere to Adventure-Game-Moonlogic

It instead transforms otherwise praiseworthy design philosophy of ultimate choice into the g*mer's hands, as actually unintentionally blocking out too easily. Like you can be fricking AWARE of the secret ending an even be able to intuition your way into solving the problem of WOTR (Wrath of the Righteous) Secret Ending, but if you so much as unintentionally made a fricking mistake and made a specific binary chocie in the goddarn PROLOGUE of the game,

CONGRADULATIONS, you have just blocked yourself out of the secret ending of the game!!!!!! :soymad: :soymad: :soymad:

I personally don't even mind bad endings in games if they are proportionally telegraphed by the devs ingame, like for example the Vampire Masquerade: Bloodlines, has several bad and really bad endings, all of which are telegraphed over and over and OVER from the very beginning, and outside of very specific actions, none of the fricking endings are locked out to you, including a couple of "Secret Endings", or at least as cruelly easily like that of fricking WOTR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374096539066.webp

https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/9xih5a/guide_to_the_true_ending_all_the_spoilers_by_free/

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374097348964.webp

"On one hand- this is awesome that "true ending" can be obtained only if someone is really determined to do so (I guess that person who wrote this guide in the first place must have spent few hundred hours to achieve this), but on the other- It's rather poor design choice to make it so railroaded (it seems like there's very little room for straying from the path, i.e.- failing Vordakai's curse check or killing Tartuk first- which is most reasonable choice as he buffs Hargulka). This feels sort of "gamey" for an RPG (I mean- it wouldn't be possible without being able to start over with previous knowledge of meta-game)."

https://i.rdrama.net/images/172043740989092.webp

"My point is that it takes very specific approach to reach this ending- not that it's too hard. If there was- for example- any indication that killing Hargulka first will yield different outcome than killing Tartuk than it'd be fine, now it seems arbitrary. I don't mind that it has to be done in certain order (although it would be cool to have such ending for characters that don't want to act compassionately towards Nyrissa), making encounters harder and being devoted to the goal, but it'd be nice if it could be achieved by wider array of characters and not necessarily gated behind skill checks (what's the point of reloading game only to have single RNG result different?)."

:marseyhesright: :marseyhesright: :marseyhesright: :marseyhesright:


YOUTUBE DISCUSSIONS:

Anyways I basically triggered myself with the release of this video, as it confirmed just how painfully specific the path ahead to the secret ending is in the game, even compared to that of Kingmaker.

A lot of peeps praise Owlcat and the fact that devs would include such a mountain of content probable never to be seen by the majority of players, which is an admirable design philosophy, especially in comparison to railroading Triple AAA slop,

but I personally feel like I basically fallen out of love with Owlcat because of this - it ticked me off beyond reason.

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374102163436.webp


Even a couple of Youtube-comments, through the usual blind praise towards the Youtube or circlejerk of the subjectmatter, also mirrors my complex feelings on the matter of the Secret Ending and how it is implemented in WOTR

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374104102802.webp

"Very convoluted & cryptic way to get to the "secret" ending tbh. In fact it is so convoluted that I have even heard an opinion that conditions to meet are so "unfair" that a lot of people were apparently using some save editor tool to alter in-game date so it would unlock the ending (which apparently works)."


R-SLURRED MORALITY OF SECRET ENDING:

there's also other reasons why I hate the Secret Ending.

Basically the main Posterchild Badguy, is Areelu Vorlesh, whom opened the Worldwound onto the fanatasy planet, which is basically an interdimensional portal staright to a demonic heck, and the setting of the game has been basically for 130 years the mortal humans/elves/dwarves have been fihghting desperate crusades to close this Worldwound super portal to save all of mortalkind

So Areelu Vorlesh is basically super fantasy hitler, and have caused absolutely tremendous suffering for the peeps of this fantasy world, yet in order to fricking fascilitate the Secret Ending, you have to fcucking understand her side of teh story,

which is interesting and cool, but morally can be r-slurred. She basically has that anime-cliche where she has a sad traumatic backstory, so all the horrors he had inflicted upon others is totally cancelled out :marseywholesome: :marseybeanannoyed: :marseybeanannoyed: :marseybeanannoyed:

Additionally, you absolutely cannot finish the Secret ending as a Legend mythic path, which sees your protagonist giving up all their magic demigod powers, to become a Legend of mortalkind, and basically rule as an average everybody to save the planet from demonic invasion, and erect your own nationstate on the ashes of the Worldwound

It's my favorite mythic path because I enjoy narratives where you relinquish extreme power in favor of responsibility, yet due to the zany twister morality of the Owlcat devs this is inherently antithical to the Secret Ending, which sees you ascending into Godhood basically.

It sort of feels like the implied BEST ending is only achievable through the avarice for ultimate power for your character, instead of a form of redemption where you realize to live your remaining years amongst mortals as a hero - it's fricking weird :marseybeanannoyed: :marseybeanannoyed:


SOME MORE YOUTUBE DISCUSSIONS:

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374106174357.webp

Others on the youtube video share the sentiment that the requirements are too extreme, and feel like the game is sort of retroactively punishing them as in the eyes of the devs as they had no forewarned knowlegde to accomplish the demanding tasks to fulfill the requirements of the Secret Ending.

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204374107725432.webp

ALSO by the way, like the Kingdom Management in the 1st Pathfinder game, there is a Crusade Management system midgame, which is basically Heroes of Might and Magic

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204376231079683.webp

So if you pretty much hate that part, and hate Heroes of Might and magic as a genre, and want it automated like in the 1st pathfinder game, once again you are fricking shit out of luck, and have to engage with this system, in order to fulfill the requirements of teh Secret Ending.

I personally love Heroes of Might and Magic, and enjoy this "mini" game but can absolutely empathize with peeps who would abhor this shit, just as I had personally abhorred the Kingmaker's Kingdom Management system :marseyyikes:


CLOSURE:

Basically in summary I really really fricking hate this Secret Ending, I hate the complexity of its requirements, I hate the fact that it's near impossible to do on your first run, I hate the fact that you can even realize of its existence and even figure out somewhat how to do it, but have fricking unknowingly locked yourself out via an unwitting earlygame choice - and I hate HATE the feeling that I am being punished retroactively by developers for having made a "bad" or suboptimal choice

Especially in very very Loooong games like the two Pathfinder games each of which can easily take a 1st run from 70-100 hours. Imagine the cruel sensation of playing for 50 fricking hours, only to realize midgame that you've unknowingly cucked yourself out of a secret choice you would have wanted to make, and that the ingame files are complex with tracking plot-flags, that even using Unity-mods are basically impossible to fix your unwitting frick up.

Even bad endings on Dishonoured, with its chaos system is telegraphed by the game throughout and you can change course midway.

This Secret Ending of WOTR leaves a very sour taste in my mouth :marseylemon: :marseylemon: :marseylemon:

93
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Do you want a serious reply here or a joke comment? Because I might as well write thousands of spergy words. :marseysweating:

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1000 dramacoin for super serial reply

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I am conflicted about this topic. Because on the one hand, I can definitely understand your frustration with the requirements for these two endings, but on the other hand, I find the way WoTR handled its secret ending really adorable and I think it fits the premise of the plot very well. In fact, I doubt very much that the actual steps are particularly difficult, and if you know what criteria you have to fulfill in terms of Areelu's motivation, it's pretty clear. The only problem with this is that - as in many other games - it is almost impossible to perform certain individual steps correctly without meta knowledge. I remember my first X-Com (2012) run where I ignored the satellites at the beginning and spent the next few months just building the associated building and satellites so that I wouldn't lose any more council members. The game didn't inform you how elementally important this is - or at least the hint didn't come across as well as the other hint that you can VERY WELL use grenades and other explosives because in the end, all the alien technologies you can get from the missions aren't really unique or rare. Was it my fault to misunderstand the importance of saving your squad mates by using grenades (and thus destroying terrain) or was it the game's fault for putting the emphasis on a wrong choice and thus giving me the impression to not use them? Another good example is ATLAS as they usually design their games to be played in such a way that you should already know what (and when) to do to achieve the best outcome. This has always prevented me from enjoying Persona and SMT as I've always felt that I'm doing something wrong and that I need to check a guide in case I have fricked up a relationship or something. Not only is this incredibly stressful but also just not fun.

However, the previous diatribe differs with Owlcats' design philosophy in one fact, and that is that the secret ending is not mandatory. To quickly summarize their design philosophy I've hastily written a concise resume of WoTR:

A bloated carcass full of systems meticulously thought out down to the smallest detail whose scope and intricacies can only be understood after protracted study. It almost contradicts itself in its expressiveness to pass as a role playing video game - but the sheer number of never-ending encounters and ways to choose your own game with several different paths and companions seems to be the icing on the cake of an already masterfully crafted game whose individual parts of the concept are presumably executed better or rather more straightforwardly elsewhere but whose general expressiveness cannot be contradicted. Righteous, indeed. Camellia fans do get the rope.

In general I like the favoured way of Owlcat that you can bruteforce your way through the game on lower difficulties by sending your blob of characters into their blob of characters or by carefully prebuffing and analyzing the next encounter on higher difficulties, and the most important thing is that everything you need to know to finish the game is essentially found in the game. There's no need to consult outsource sources in any case. You could, naturally, read information regarding builds or other content only but that's not necessary as you'll somehow arrive at the end in case you actually want to finish this behemoth of a game. More importantly I've never felt stressed that I did something wrong. The secret ending, however, is also quite annoying to get.

I just skimmed over the individual steps again and a lot of it is already explained in the game, such as shooting the specific demon lords with the special arrow ammo is self-explanatory in the information text, studying the various texts (Crystal, Areelu's Notes, Sword of Valor etc) via the crusade management system is a task you did anyway (WoTR had significantly too little content here compared to Kingmaker, which is fine imo), but most importantly I think the result is actually very accurate thematically to the plot. I mean, Throne of Baal lets you level up without really having fought anyone "powerful", Pillars 2 has something happen at the end, many JRPGs let you fight a deity and gain immortality by looking up the underage companion's skirt enough times - and WoTR has you achieve this result by taking reasonably convoluted steps. Reasonably because depending on the mythic part and companion you have more or less options - Furry's enigma quest allows you to get an extra crystal, as an angel you get a quest item earlier and I believe a DLC even allows you to use one of the bosses for this as well. The more I think about it the more clever I think the pay off for all that effort is. Besides all of that, this outcome is often teased during the game which essentially means it should be somehow achievable for the player, and even though you could technically argue about some parts of the secret ending being too obscure, I don't think passing a perception check or selecting a certain dialogue option as you usually check all of them is too bad of a requirement. It doesn't require any actual meta knowledge a la press X button five times at the correct time (FF X-2). I do understand your frustrations here but as previously mentioned the secret ending isn't a necessity – which in turn is part of a bigger issue.

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble and you get the point that I'm a fan of this particular ending and the way you can achieve it. This does not mean that I agree with the concept of secret endings in general. In fact, I think the entire concept of multiple endings is r-slurred because video game writers aren't capable of writing a single decent ending let alone multiple decent ones. I've had a hard time avoiding the term good here but there are so many games whose endings differ solely by differentiating between everyone dies or everyone lives. Laughable! One thing that has always annoyed me about gaming in general is the purpose of the narrative compared to the game play. In general, both should support each other but more often than not you're doing the same repetitive tasks for no reasons or you're getting lore dumps or fragments with no gameplay. The ending of a game, which is usually the culmination of your efforts during your playthrough should reward you with reflecting the way you approach the game but more often than not you're shoehorned into collect or do everything perfectly and you get the true ending – don't do this get a whatever/bad ending. Narratively tripe. Only beaten by the single binary good vs evil choice at the end.

I mean technically nothing is stopping you from following a guide to get the actual ending of the game as the writers intended, but why not make that the only ending? If certain side content is required to achieve the true ending, why not make the content mandatory – or are you scared its throwaway filler that people won't bother playing? Then why is it necessary to achieve the true ending? It's a matter of opinion but now I think multiple endings are complete nonsense and an instant red flag that should only be considered for certain genres of games (Metroidvanias for example). Everyone else should get variations of the same ending - but not like ME3. More like Chrono Trigger. God, what a game.

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Blah Blah blah blah

yap yap yap yap

Didnt read

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Could have been worse. :marseysunflower:

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:#marseyme:

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Thanks Losercel very cool

Do you want 1000 DRAMACOIN

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Nah, it was a nice post and I felt it is only fair for me to contribute. I like reading other people's take on things even if I personally disagree.

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whats going on i cant read this i'm too busy completing the Darven sidequest :#chad:

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204525242750945.webp

!g*mers pro tip: ALWAYS side with Darven :#gigachad2:

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I'll tell you a secret of how I do it : play the game and make the choices as you would choose them if you were really there. Then after you beat the game you watch all the endings and the secret ending on YouTube.

You're welcome.


https://files.catbox.moe/y2zrro.png https://i.rdrama.net/images/172082001273549.webp

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in the type of games like the Pathfinder role playing games, where the objective is to roleplay, this is always a shit experience

because there will always be even minute differences in what choices or appearance another guy had made for this character in these types of games.

And the roleplaying just stops there - watching ending slides of someone else's characters are as dry and unsatisfying as seeing an aquarium filled with fake plastic fish - the investment I make unto my fictional cahracter just isn't there and is just gone

I have watched ending slides for stuff like Mass Effect out of curiosity, but that was lessor type roleplaying games

In my lifespan I have mad shitloads of NPCs in a myriad of games, for both sexes, and all races, usually purely fricking based on a cool portrait I found, to replace that experience for my individual character's ending will just never be fulfilling, and I'd literally just prefer to remain in the in the dark for unobtainable endings.

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I don't care enough to even watch the secret super ultra ending. I play how I want to and I win how I want to. Those dev dweebs can't stop me nor can meaningless "achievements." Not sure why some people get so wrapped up in the mundane.

:marseynekopat:

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I mean it's usually because the secret ending's the 'best' ending in these kinds of games.

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>game devs

>good writing

:#marseyemojirofl:

Have an upmarsey, champ. :marseyupvote2:

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>In my lifespan I have mad shitloads of NPCs in a myriad of games, for both sexes, and all races, usually purely fricking based :marseyhesright: on a cool portrait I found

:marseykingcrown:

This is totally the play. Why play an cRPG if you're not going :marseysal2: to roleplay a character?

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Race: human

S*x: male

Class: warrior

Equipment: sword and shield

It's RPG time :gigachad2:

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Only the first couple slides matter for the major ending - you know you rescued Tom the Farmer and that he lives happily ever after when you beat the game yourself.


https://files.catbox.moe/y2zrro.png https://i.rdrama.net/images/172082001273549.webp

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Completely agree. I played WotR twice (core first then unfair), and I had a lot more fun in my first playthrough of the game. The second time I went for the secret ending and boy, it is not worth it. Coupled with the bullshit difficulty in certain segments (e.g. monsters being airdropped ready to take a turn, horrible UI for puzzles...), the headache that is navigating through the abyss, and some other minor complaints, I think toy box ("god mode" mod) is a requirement if your time is worth something above zero.

Now I'm on my first playthrough of Kingmaker and I couldn't give less of a shit about killing Tartuccio first or missing some kingdom problem. Let me crit some big bears with a falcata and I'll be happy as a clam :marseycrusader2:

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ToyBox makes the most annoying part about it, making sure the game ends on the specific week of the year, a non issue and I 100% used it to cheese that part.

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Exactly, I mean it's already a pain in the butt to go back and forth in time to fix problems with my :marseyretardchad: brain, I need this mod if I'm going to enjoy my time as long as I'm on this road to madness (the whole game has been completely rekt and my time wasted) and I'm never using that thing that will not be.

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>look up the endings

>decide which one I want to have

>follow guide that leads to that ending

has never failed me so far :marseyretardchad:

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/1720439993920609.webp

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:#marseyinabox::#marseyakbar:

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I just wanted to become the asian girl's s*x slave but it wouldn't let me. It made me mad because I think I could have actually pulled that off in real life.

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>kaamrev post to start the week

:marseywereback:

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I think the bigger problem with kingmaker is the final act of the game being chock full of spam fey enemies that make you roll DC 40+ paralyze saves as a free action

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last 5-10 hours is a slog

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You know it's a gaze attack and blind fight makes you immune to it?

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ok r-slur I can read strategy guides too it's still annoying as shit for characters that I didn't put that feat on

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>not being a PF nerd

:marseyitneverbegan#:

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he's actually a father, and has a son (What's your excuse dramatards!

im gay and r-slurred

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>I personally love Heroes of Might and Magic

:vegetakneel:

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>Especially in very very Loooong games like the two Pathfinder games each of which can easily take a 1st run from 70-100 hours

Never could get into Pathfinder since I was too impatient with the gameplay (I think I was spoiled from DOS2) , but I had a similar feeling with BG3, thinking how cool it was to have hundreds of hours of extra content if I just took different routes or experimented with other builds.

Reality: nope. Played once and never again. (And pretty much blasted through the last one third of the game because it was getting tedious.) Starting a fresh game that would take at least 80 hours to finish is exhausting to think about.

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Yeah, I love CRPGs but they're too long to play through more than once. There's always so much to do that's technically optional but it always negatively affects your build if you skip too much, and while I love it the first time through, it's a barrier to repeated plays. You've gotta be a real shut-in dork to have 3+ runs through some of these games.

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When the extra content includes replaying the game it isnt really extra since you just play the same game again.

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The problem I have with these long games is that they're the most fun when you're still gearing up, but you can't skip the shitty slow as frick prologue/set up segments. Like the period between 10-60% of the way through the game is usually awesome before it falls off. But I loathe doing the exact same shit for the first 10%.

And it's not just CRPGs, Elden Ring has the same issue. New builds take 2-3 hours to get set up, and by that point I've already burnt myself out on the game. Skyrim had that one mod that just dropped you off somewhere random in the map. More games oughta have that.

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Just play Roblox :marseywhirlyhat:

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When I get downvoted I'll just make an edit usually asking why I've been downvoted so I can expose people for the cowards they are. I challenge them to prove what I said was wrong, this usually either gets me more downvotes or sometimes people will start upvoting me again because they know they have no argument. Being downvoted shouldn't bother me, but it does because I try and be as respectful towards everyone as I can here and have genuine thoughtful comments. And to see that ultimately go unappreciated makes me feel like my comment was worthless whenever I really made the effort to make it sound good, especially my longer comments on topics I'm interested in.

Snapshots:

:

rDrama.net:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/252382-pathfinder-kingmaker-definitive-edition/78928689:

https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/cff5a0/game_would_have_been_more_fun_without_kingdom/:

https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/cff5a0/game_would_have_been_more_fun_without_kingdom/eu9hql7/?context=8:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/3393916911755161624/:

https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-kingmaker/guides/Best_Ending:

https://www.pcg*mer.com/the-long-road-to-the-secret-ending-of-pathfinder-kingmaker/:

https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/9xih5a/guide_to_the_true_ending_all_the_spoilers_by_free/:

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I got it on my first playthrough. Followed a guide and it wasn't that hard. Yes there are a lot of requirements but that's because the game is big. Only a few spots where you can accidentally hard lock yourself.

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1. You literally followed a guide

2. You can hardlock yourself and only realise so 39 hours later

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The point is that none of the fights, skill checks, puzzles and so on are particularly hard. The secret ending isn't limited to the hardest difficulty setting, doesn't require multiple playthroughs, etc. The only thing that's hard is finding out the secrets, which, yeah the game doesn't spell out for you and that's a breath of fresh air.

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Yeah, but i fell that the complexity is divorced from the mechanical difficulty from the game, and the intuition one needs to solve a puzzle

But my opinion isn't inherently better

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Dramaphobic answer.

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The guide thing seems like the biggest problem to me, besides the bugs. It sounds to me like it turns the game into a very linear experience, which is kinda antithetical to how CRPG's should be played. Kinda puts me off the whole thing.

Owlcat did Rogue Trader, too, didn't they? Does that one have the same problem?

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i haven't played rogue trader yet

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I don't know if this is well known but Planescape: Torment did something similar. In order to get the best of the best ending that reveals the most about the story you just experienced you have to a lot of stuff perfectly. IIRC you have to do almost all of the side quests to bump up your attributes, but that's not enough. You have to make exactly the right choices in the last dialogue and it's not at all clear that you're making an extremely important decision.

Age of Decadence did something that really pissed me off. I get to the very end, only to find that I didn't boost my crafting skill high enough. For the whole goddarn game I don't think I ever used crafting more than once or twice and now it's checked at the very end. Absolutely fricking infuriating. Don't teach me that it's a useless skill for the whole game if it's going to be critical in the end.

Totally agree about Nu X-Com and especially XCOM 2 where it gets extreme. Losing 1 guy means I'll lose the battle which means I'll lose the war. So that means I have to reload every time I suffer a casualty. It's really not that interesting of a game when you do that. The original X-Com did just the opposite. If you had just gotten your butt kicked a few times it would make the next few UFOs weaker to give you a chance to catch up.

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😴😴😴

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I like Owlcat but they are definitely a company that does not respect a player's time lol. Like they always add these mechanics that end up being knick knacky time sinks that sound like a good idea on the surface but in reality are half assed implemented.

The kingdom management and time restraint mechanics of the first game are a good example, as you mentioned in the post and being that they pretty much removed time restraints from WotR (outside of the first chapter and if you want the secret ending, ironically enough) and Crusade Mode is able to be skipped by the player if they want.

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Watch it on YouTube and do something else. You don't have to do this.

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Ok loser

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Heh. Good one, Chapose.

:#highfive:

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Thanks man :marseycool:

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I redeemed Narcissa and made her good with my peepee. Also helps I changed her portrait to this

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17204548212622674.webp

Anyway, yeah I agree the kingdom management portion sucks and even some of the timed events shit. Like there are moments I remember to save everyone you'd have to hustle hard.

And it really feels like it doesn't matter if my kingdom is booming or not touched much. You don't get extra benefits. Like you should have other adventurers find loot either you missed or generate and bring to you as tribute or something. Or your merchants and crafters build better quality items. Instead its just mediocre bonuses.

WotR isn't any better with the crusade management and having other generals lead army and having it be convoluted n shit.

idk I just dont think having a crpg and then bogging down another rts-esq management system on top of it helps so you wind up disabling it or having it go auto anyway.

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You can make her your immortal plant waifu, that was a pretty good side secret.

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Its the only owlcat game so far with decent waifus, its either her or the tiefling twins. :#horny:

I'm going to wait for Rogue Trader to finish being patched+DLCs and maybe we'll get more content for Argenta n shit.

I'm still annoyed voice lines were only for like... prologue stuff...

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I'm not reading a single word of this, but lmao he actually went for the secret ending :marseylaughpoundfist: People memeing themselves into it and then getting mad at it has been funny since launch

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Anything that evolved from pathfinder is going to be cursed, neurodivergent, and unfun bullshit because it is made by people who saw D&D 3.5, the most bloated and obnoxious game system ever made, and thought "we need more of that, but wordier and more bloated".

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I like the secret/true ending of Ghosts 'n Goblins, it's so simple yet most people would not want to do what is required to achieve it.

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dunno it's not particularly hard to get and most of the stuff gets hinted at. sure you wont get it on your first playthrough but you dont need to datamine or cryptography degree to get it either. lots of indieslop and japanese shit have much more obscure requierments for "true" ending

the worst part of WOTR are block puzzles and Enigma, frick this place, did it once and never again

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Name some games with much more obscure requirements, I'm curious now

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Yeah I've never really understood indie games' obsession with having neurodivergent secret endings for no reason. Like that knowledge alone is enough to turn me off the game, because it makes it feel like unless you're playing to the dev's tune, you're gonna be locked out of the 'best' ending.

I think it might just be due to the fact that usually getting such secret endings don't really rely on actually making good observations or deducing anything, but on somehow connecting random shit together to solve an oblique puzzle.

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There is logic and clues strewn throughout the game for peeps to connect the logic

But in the end, the sheer amount of stringed together events and actions, feels restrictive, remember just one frickup on this chain of evens will derail all previous efforts

And my main point of sneed was that it felt like being retroactively punished much later beyond the point where you realized a furthr action would have screwed you over.

It felt like devs are innately implying there to be a superior ending, rewarding a superior run of the campaign, in the same way in which other games like Metro 2033 rewarded a more virtuous playthrough with a secret ending, thus it felt implied to me that there was a superior virtue being assessed by the game

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wow so it's a BG3 clone

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WRONG

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Then stop playing video games you fricking moron

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Spelunky 2 has an ending, a secret ending and a double secret ending so secret that it doesn't have an achievement because it wouldn't be fair to normal epic g*mers. You basically need to be a turbo neurodivergent in both game skill and investigative skill. Even though the game was massively popular it took the community 2 weeks to figure it out.

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