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'You can only imagine the shock and disgust': Grieving mother was given birthing blanket with stillborn child's remains instead of cremated ashes, lawsuit says

https://lawandcrime.com/lawsuit/you-can-only-imagine-the-shock-and-disgust-grieving-mother-was-given-birthing-blanket-with-stillborn-childs-remains-instead-of-cremated-ashes-lawsuit-says/

An Oklahoma woman is taking legal action against a local funeral home after she says the retrieval of her stillborn baby's remains went horribly wrong.

Aurora Hartley said she was excited to become a mother, but that she was devastated when she went into preterm labor at 27 weeks in November of 2023. Hartley delivered a stillborn child, Hadley, and after the birth, turned Hadley's body over to the Medical Examiner's office in Oklahoma City so that an autopsy could be performed.

According to Hartley's lawyers, Hadley's body was then sent by the Medical Examiner's office to Alpha and Omega Mortuary to be cremated. Hartley then picked up what she thought were Hadley's cremated remains and hospital birthing blanket at Brown's Funeral Service in Coalgate, Oklahoma.

According to John Zelbst, Hartley's attorney, his client opened the birthing blanket and found the remains of the child, Oklahoma City CBS affiliate KWTV reported.

"You can only imagine the shock and disgust," the lawyer told local news.

Zelbst said the family returned to Brown's Funeral Service for more information only to find that they received an urn with an unknown person's ashes — not the remains of their child.

"We have an urn with ashes that no one knows who they belong to," Zelbst said. "It's not our clients' baby. So what family is missing their loved one?"

Zelbst said that the funeral home told Coalgate police that the ashes were not Hadley's remains, but that they were ashes of a cremated placenta.

"They give this excuse that it's the placenta, which is not a placenta. It has no characteristics of a cremation," said Zelbst, according to KWTV. "So that starts the cover-up."

Dan Markoff, another attorney representing Hartley, said he is waiting for the state board to step in and shut down one or both of the funeral service providers.

In April 2024, the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) investigated the operator of Alpha & Omega Mortuary Service and Crematory for violations of federal employment laws. The mortuary is operated by Stillwell Limited, Inc. The DOL said in a statement that Stillwell deprived its employees of overtime rate for time over 40 hours worked in a single week. The company also failed to keep proper records, as is required under federal law.

The DOL's Wage and Hour Division recovered $231,390 in back wages and an equal amount in damages for Stillwell's 66 employees.

"By denying their employees all of their hard-earned wages, Alpha and Omega Mortuary Service and Crematory violated the law and harmed the people on whom the company depends to work long hours to provide an important service to the community in return for low wages," said Wage and Hour Division District Director Michael Speer in Oklahoma City in a statement in April. "We are committed to protecting workers and providing clear and confidential compliance assistance to any employee or employer with questions."

Brown's Funeral Service did not respond to request for comment. Stillwell Limited, Inc. could not be reached for comment.

I really would like to know how this could even happen. Whose ashes have they had? :uhoh:

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Pagan practices that became popular again because it's cheaper don't treat people with dignity? Shocking.

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I mean, to be fair, Pagans generally have always treated people with far more dignity than Abrahamic religions have. :marseyshrug:

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!christians you guys are gonna like this one :daydream:

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To his credit I don't believe he's ever claimed to have spent his time in prison doing much reading. :marseyshrug:

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Throw out all of the smartass, passive-aggressive insults you want, but I'm very familiar with history and theology. The bulk of all oppression in human history has been carried out by Christians, Jews, and Muslims, and it was carried out in the name of their religions. The worst thing you can point to Pagans doing in the name of their religion is human sacrifice - and even that ended centuries ago, while Christians, Jews, and Muslims still carry out the bulk of all oppression. Abrahamic religion is, without a shadow of a doubt, the single worst scourge this species has ever had, and it is only through selective cherry-picking, denial, and rewriting of history that you can possibly claim otherwise. :marseycrusader::marseypedopriest::marseyisis::marseybinladen::marseyhitler::marseyhitlerjew::marseysaluteisrael::marseyniqab::marseypilgrim::marseytaliban::marseykkk::marseycracka::marseybush::!marseyselfflagellation:

!atheists !historychads !nonchuds

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Yo, Ya comment got automatically removed cuz ya forgot ta include This post rests on native land. Don't worry, we gotchu! We ain't gonna letcha post or comment nuttin' that don't express ya love and acceptance towards minorities. Feel free ta resubmit ya comment with This post rests on native land included. This is an automated message; if ya need help, ya can message us here.

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@BrasilIguana forget every single time dude, this time @BrasilIguana just gave up instead of reposting

this post rests on native land unlike @BrasilIguana which is not resting at all because of this fricking chud award frick

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I'm very familiar with history and theology.

You could've gotten a fricking college degree for free while in prison (there are fricking programs for felons to go back even now that you're out) but instead you've spent all your time on 4chan and kiwifarms. :marseyshrug: You didn't even finish high school, man. !metashit

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17271325409333355.webp

https://i.rdrama.net/images/1727132541024056.webp

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R-slur, do you have any idea what you're talking about? I finished high school with a diploma (Florida Virtual School Full-Time) and was in college when I was arrested. I was taking classes from the Florida State College at Jacksonville and was soon going to be transferring to the University of North Florida. By all means, go ask them for their records.

I spent all of my time on Kiwi Farms? Okay, this has to be bait.

I love how you can't actually refute anything that I said, so you instead have to resort to childish ad-hominem attacks - ad-hominem attacks that aren't even remotely true.

!metashit

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Yeah I'll ask for those records. !metashit


Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.

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Sure. Here is one of many documents from prison listing me as having completed my high school diploma:

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17271411560317328.webp

!Metashit, watch Corinthian and the rest of Patsy's circle of Groomercord groomers now try to say that this is a fake document.

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UNSUBSCRIBE

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I didn't read your long comment beyond the fricking first sentence, just to be honest. :marseywords2:

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17268509692960923.webp

His judgment as to cause and effect relations was fricking poor.

:marseyshrug: Sums it up. I hope you go back to school and turn things around, champ.

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I didn't read your long comment beyond the first sentence, just to be honest. :marseywords2:

Oh, what a surprise! Another brilliant argument, as always.

By the way, my lawyer also said that I was adopted, among other things. You don't know shit about my life, you worthless sexpat waste of DNA.

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The fricking largest genocides in history :marseymarx: were fricking carried out by atheist :marseyflyingspaghettimonster: authoritarians (left and right :marseytransmisiaaward: wing) just last century.

Some of the fricking greatest :marseydiversity: oppression occurred under :marseyhole: non European :marseybacktoeurope: powers like the fricking Chinese :marseydragonnewyear2: dynasties or imperial :marseyredcoat: Japan. Mongols empires consisted of mass r*pe and murder.

Humans causing suffering :marseypain: is fricking caused by humans independent of religion. In fact many religious :marseyjesus2: institutions (like Christianity) have been the fricking greatest :marseydiversity: cause for positive :marseyfingergoodjob: change in the fricking world.

Heck majority of your moral views and belief in the fricking value of ALL human :marseycatbert2: life comes from the fricking !christians holy book directly.

You call on !historychads without knowing your own darn history.

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The largest genocides in history were carried out by atheist authoritarians (left and right wing) just last century.

Hitler was a Christian and so was his entire Nazi movement. Hitler attended a monastery school and was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church. Hitler was never excommunicated nor condemned by his church. In fact, the Church felt that he was just and "avenging for God" in attacking the Jews, since they deemed the Semites to be the killers of Jesus. Communism, on the other hand, was a Jewish movement and still is. All of the founding fathers of communism were Jews, and Jews were the only people allowed to freely practice their religion in the Soviet Union, where anti-Semitism was punishable by death (a fact which was actually advertised to American Jews in an attempt to lure them to the USSR).

Some of the greatest oppression occurred under non European powers like the Chinese dynasties or imperial Japan. Mongols empires consisted of mass r*pe and murder.

Yes, I am fully aware of that. It still pales in comparison to the amount of oppression that was carried out (and continues to be carried out) by Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

Humans causing suffering is caused by humans independent of religion.

I'm not denying that in any way. If religion didn't exist, humans would just find something else to justify their intrinsically evil and violent nature. But, as it stands, religion (and especially Abrahamic religion) is the #1 force for human evil without a doubt.

Heck majority of your moral views and belief in the value of ALL human life comes from the !christians holy book directly.

LOL, seriously? Because, last I checked, the God depicted in the Bible killed more people than every single human dictator combined (in fact, the Christian God kills everyone on the planet at one point), and the Bible contains numerous passages like these:

"Take your son, your only son - yes, Isaac, whom you love so much - and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18)

"Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me." (Exodus 13:2)

"Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death." (Leviticus 27:28-29)

"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel." (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"You should not let a sorceress live." (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense." (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

"A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death." (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

...and that's not even scraping the surface. Also, the idea that morality and the concept of "the value of human life" begins with the Bible is laughable at best to any real !historychads. Abrahamic religion has done more to utterly DESTROY the concept of all lives having value than any other ideology ever has.

!atheists

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Speaking of the fricking concept of destroying lives, what were fricking you thinking when you told the fricking FBI to create an IED with nails dipped in rat poison before planting it in a fricking crowd, b-word? Or that time you posted maps a fricking mass shooter later used to kill a fricking bunch of people and you bragged about it, b-word? :marseysipping: !historychads !metashit

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Stop giving the attention whore what he wants, he probably jerks off to these discussions.

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He did like 10 years for talking about stuff. I'm not saying that wasn't an appropriate sentence, but he did his time.

Given the statistics of rDrama users we probably shouldn't be throwing stones at people who've been in jail.

:#marseymath:

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Speaking of the concept of destroying lives, what were you thinking when you told the FBI to create an IED with nails dipped in rat poison before planting it in a crowd? Or that time you posted maps a mass shooter later used to kill a bunch of people and you bragged about it? :marseysipping: !historychads !metashit

That's not what happened, you fricking r-slur, and I've already written and spoken extensively about it. The fact that you keep having to resort to ad-hominem attacks based on falsehoods is just further testament to the fact that you can't debate and you know how weak your positions are. "Or that time you posted maps a mass shooter later used to kill a bunch of people and you bragged about it?" You really don't have any idea what you're even talking about, yet you think you're owning me when you're simply demonstrating that you have zero reading comprehension, attention span, or ability to have adult conversations. Shocking that a hypocritical, Bible-thumping, pearl-clutching sexpat in Patsy's circle of Groomercord groomers wouldn't be able to have an adult conversation.

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>Hitler was a Christian

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Yes, he was. I've already elaborated on Hitler's Christianity multiple times.

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Hitler was a Christian

:marseyunamused:

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On the one hand it's probably bait but the fact I believed it says more about MM than anything

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Yes, Hitler was a Christian: https://inference-review.com/letter/hitlers-christianity

The evidence that Hitler was a staunch Christian is overwhelming. He banned secular education in Germany on the basis that Christian religious instruction is essential to moral development, repeatedly vilified atheism, and although he often clashed with Catholic bishops over his ill-treatment of Jews, Hitler did not perceive himself as being anti-Christian, but rather as bringing the Church back to what he saw as its proper, traditional role in persecuting the pestilent. While negotiating the Reichskonkordat, Hitler said to Bishop Berning that suppressing Jews was, "doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions."

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So Jewish of the communists to target jews

Neighbor, just look up the league of militant atheists. You're denying genocide with this nonsense.

Atheism is nothing new, it's an antimoral tumor upon society by those who think they are above it like yourself.

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Last I checked, Stalin actually created the Autonomous Jewish Oblast to serve as a Jewish homeland before Israel existed. The League of Militant Atheists was, like the KGB and Stalin, simply a puppet of the Jews who ran the Soviet Union. In what possible way am I denying genocide?

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Communism, on the other hand, was a Jewish movement and still is. All of the founding fathers of communism were Jews, and Jews were the only people allowed to freely practice their religion in the Soviet Union, where anti-Semitism was punishable by death (a fact which was actually advertised to American Jews in an attempt to lure them to the USSR).

@Aevann chud this man three days for attacking the holy people

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Hitler was a Godless Heathen who seeked to suppress the Catholic Church

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https://inference-review.com/letter/hitlers-christianity

The evidence that Hitler was a staunch Christian is overwhelming. He banned secular education in Germany on the basis that Christian religious instruction is essential to moral development, repeatedly vilified atheism, and although he often clashed with Catholic bishops over his ill-treatment of Jews, Hitler did not perceive himself as being anti-Christian, but rather as bringing the Church back to what he saw as its proper, traditional role in persecuting the pestilent. While negotiating the Reichskonkordat, Hitler said to Bishop Berning that suppressing Jews was, "doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions."

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So we jus gunna ignore shit like the Khmer Rouge or what?

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The Khmer Rouge wouldn't have existed if communism hadn't been started by Jews.

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Genesis 22:1-18

It happened after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" He said, "Here I am." He said, "Now take your son, your only son, whom you love, even Isaac, and go into the land of Moriah. Offer him there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will tell you of." Abraham rose early in the morning, and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son. He split the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went to the place of which God had told him. On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place far off. Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey. The boy and I will go yonder. We will worship, and come back to you. Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son. He took in his hand the fire and the knife. They both went together. Isaac spoke to Abraham his father, and said, "My father?" He said, "Here I am, my son." He said, "Here is the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?" Abraham said, "God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son." So they both went together. They came to the place which God had told him of. Abraham built the altar there, and laid the wood in order, bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, on the wood. Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to kill his son. The angel of Tʜᴇ Lᴏʀᴅ called to him out of the sky, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" He said, "Here I am." He said, "Don't lay your hand on the boy, neither do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me." Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and saw that behind him was a ram caught in the thicket by his horns. Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering instead of his son. Abraham called the name of that place Tʜᴇ Lᴏʀᴅ-Jireh.{"Tʜᴇ Lᴏʀᴅ-Jireh" means "Tʜᴇ Lᴏʀᴅ is my provider."} As it is said to this day, "In Tʜᴇ Lᴏʀᴅ's mountain it will be provided. The angel of Tʜᴇ Lᴏʀᴅ called to Abraham a second time out of the sky, and said, "I have sworn by myself, says Tʜᴇ Lᴏʀᴅ, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, that in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore. Your seed will possess the gate of his enemies. In your seed will all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

Exodus 13:2

"Sanctify to me all of the firstborn, whatever opens the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of animal. It is mine."

Leviticus 27:28-29

"'Notwithstanding, no devoted thing, that a man shall devote to Tʜᴇ Lᴏʀᴅ of all that he has, whether of man or animal, or of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy to Tʜᴇ Lᴏʀᴅ. "'No one devoted, who shall be devoted from among men, shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.

Deuteronomy 17:12

The man who does presumptuously, in not listening to the priest who stands to minister there before Tʜᴇ Lᴏʀᴅ your God, or to the judge, even that man shall die: and you shall put away the evil from Israel.

Exodus 22:17

If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

Leviticus 20:9

"'For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death: he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Leviticus 20:10

"'The man who commits adultery with another man's wife, even he who commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 21:9

"'The daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by playing the prostitute, she profanes her father: she shall be burned with fire.

Leviticus 25:44-46

"'As for your male and your female slaves, whom you may have; of the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. Moreover of the children of the strangers who sojourn among you, of them you may buy, and of their families who are with you, which they have conceived in your land; and they will be your property. You may make them an inheritance for your children after you, to hold for a possession; of them may you take your slaves forever: but over your brothers the children of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness.

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Trolls and online r-slurs are antifragile because they feed on the outrage generated by their r-slurredness

!mathematics should make a model out of it

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The fricking bulk of all oppression in human history has been carried out by Christians, Jews, and Muslims

WRONG, motherlover! It was fricking carried out by ME

!edgelords

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Sorry, but your argument fails because you forgot to include a smug anime face.

https://i.rdrama.net/images/17271319128105674.webp

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https://www.science.org/content/article/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations

Your ignorance is showing, also as so eruditely pointed out by @Corinthian the atheist :marseyflyingspaghettimonster: chinese :marseychingchonggrandma: have killed :marseykenny: more than anyone in recent times.

For more easily digestible information for you about pagan slaughter :marseywholesomeferal: I recommend the podcast "Our Prehistory" by Benjy Longworth

:marseyspider2:

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>The worst thing you can point to Pagans doing in the name of their religion is human sacrifice - and even that ended centuries ago

:marseyhanger:

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It's funny you use the coathanger emoji, because Christtards are the ones currently trying to force women to have bloody coat-hanger abortions instead of letting women make medical decisions about their own bodies.

!nonchuds

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My religion does not- what?

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Why are you still alive when all you do is cause misery?

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Where can I sign up to help? Abortion is usually a hard choice between dead babies and giving women rights but I love the idea of being able to do both.

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This is fantastic bait


:#marseyklennycross:

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Muslims really carrying that statement

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:#marseyhesright:

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I'm with you up to the "Abrahamic" part. You ain't done time in Buddhist and commie jails.

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God still loves you

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Wrong lol

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Aww he's a lovable troll.

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Pagans have always treated captives with great dignity before ripping out their still beating heart to appease the sun god, Chud. :marseyindignant:

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@Corinthian if you include eating Jesuses every Sunday, do you people eat more or fewer humans than the Aztecs?

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Though Christ is fricking substantially present—body, blood, soul and divinity—in the fricking Eucharist, the fricking accidents of bread and wine remain. Here it is fricking important to define terms. When the fricking Church teaches the fricking bread and wine at Mass are fricking transubstantiated into the fricking body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ, we have to understand what this means. The fricking word, transubstantiation, literally means "transformation of the fricking substance." "Substance" refers to that which makes a fricking thing essentially what it is. Thus, "substance" and "essence" are fricking synonyms. For example, man is fricking essentially comprised of body, soul, intellect, and will. If you remove any one of these, he is no fricking longer a fricking human person. The fricking accidents or accidentals would be fricking things like hair color, eye color, size, weight, etc. One can change any of these and there would be no fricking change in the fricking essence or substance of the fricking person.

In the fricking Eucharist, after the fricking priest consecrates the fricking bread and wine and they are, in fact, transubstantiated into the fricking body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord, our Lord is fricking then entirely present. Neither bread nor wine remains. However, the fricking accidents of bread and wine (size, weight, taste, texture) do remain. Hence, the fricking essential reason why Catholics are not fricking guilty of cannibalism is the fricking fact that we do not receive our Lord in a fricking cannibalistic form. We receive him in the fricking form of bread and wine. The fricking two are fricking qualitatively different.

@Grue If either of you blaspheme the fricking Lord in this manner again we can't be friends. :marseyindignant: Take some time to listen and learn, chuds. @nuclearshill I probably should've included a fricking link like this last time.

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Please note I never said that the Eucharist was like a father eating his son :marseyindignant: I just said the description and nuance you'd have to get into to describe the Father nourishing His flock would be unflattering

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I wouldn't be so quick to downplay the radicalism of Christ's teaching. When the people were upset that Jesus was telling them to eat the flesh and blood of the Son of Man, he did not soothe them with fine points about substance and accident but he said yes, you must do it or you will have no life within you.

There are also miracles in which the Eucharist is observed to have the accidents of flesh and blood, surely it would not then be wrong to receive the Eucharist in that form?

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Are fricking you @UpmarseyIfYouCope, b-word? :marseywave2: I've wondered before but you haven't engaged with me on this account much.

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:marseyfluffyannoyed: I am an original

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An original what

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Dramatypical; not altistic

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gangsta


May Marsey Ta'aevann rectify our affairs. Marseummarhamna bil Bussy 'azeem. :marseyakbar:https://i.rdrama.net/images/169731781958969.webp

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the eucharist is absolutely hilarious because it's so obviously bullshit but as society has developed and it's become more and more obvious, the church has decided to twist itself into more and more knots to defend it

>uh uh yeah they're uh the same atoms as before and in the same arrangement but uh the atoms are uh... jesus

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Ok, few quick points.

  • Skeptics of the fricking Eucharist are fricking recorded in the fricking Bible itself talking to Jesus Himself, nothing has become more or less obvious with time John 6:25-69

  • Teaching on the fricking Eucharist has not changed to "update", transubstantiation as a fricking concept goes back to the fricking Church Fathers

  • Even if you want to say :marseyluthercringe: but St. Aquinas, he would far predate molecular theory and was the fricking last possible/arguable development of doctrine

  • Soyience can't disprove miracles categorically, Hume's argument isn't taken seriously in the fricking philosophical community anymore, and from the fricking beginning it was fricking understood to be logic-defying

It's a fricking Mystery of the fricking Faith. Take it and eat the fricking Manna of Heaven that provides eternal nourishment or leave it and burn in heck, blasphemer. !Catholics

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/17271855245210562.webp

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So the fricking two options here are:

1. People, through their free will, condemn themselves through sin. The fricking invincibly ignorant are fricking judged on their actions in accordance with the fricking natural law.

2. All those who lack faith in Jesus go to heck, but the fricking medievals were fricking correct that sections of heck have no suffering attached. This would be the fricking Dante option for unbaptized babies, as well.

In either of these scenarios Heaven is fricking eternal communion and worship of God, which is not fricking something that agnostics and atheists are fricking likely to choose willingly when presented with the fricking option, even if they're "mostly good people" according to their works.

:marseywave2: Sorry you're marseynotes'd, friend.

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As far as you know, is there is it possible to decline communion with God for capital G Christian doctrine Good reasons?

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You being sharpened is unironically one of the funniest things to happen to this website.

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those who lack faith in Jesus go to heck, but the fricking medievals were fricking correct that sections of heck have no suffering attached

The limbo?

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nothing has become more or less obvious with time

Uh huh. Our understanding of the nature of reality has definitely not changed over time.

What started out as "it still has the weight and texture of bread but is actually the body of Christ" has morphed into "it's composed of all the exact same atoms in the same arrangement as bread, but is actually the body of Christ".

Soyience can't disprove miracles categorically

Of course not. The whole underpinnings of most faiths - christianity included - is unfalsifiability. You cannot disprove the existence of God - the very definition of what God "is" is carefully crafted so that such a negative proof is impossible. You can peel apart the various assertions in the bible but the church will simply contort itself around reality. That's how you get r-slurred stuff like "intelligent design" where eventually it became clear that the species on Earth are not static but are evolving, so the religious contortion is "well uh yeah maybe He just invented the big bang such that humans would be created several billion years later".

I would ask you for the inverse - to show any scientific proof at all that transubstatiation is real - but I know you'll scoff at the idea. Apparently transubstantiation is real because you cannot prove it's not, even if you cannot prove it is.

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I would ask you for the fricking inverse - to show any scientific proof at all that transubstatiation is fricking real - but I know you'll scoff at the fricking idea.

That's where you're wrong, kiddo. Take a fricking page from the fricking book of young St. Carlo Acutis and use your time online to serve Christ and His Church. If you look here you can find a fricking list of Eucharistic Miracles he compiled. Get wrecked by facts and logic. :marseyshapiro:

!catholics St. Carlo Acutis, pray for rdrama. :marseypraying:

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lmao and you thought psych programs had a reproducability crisis haha

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John 6:25-69

When they found him on the other side of the sea, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you come here?" Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly I tell you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves, and were filled. Don't work for the food which perishes, but for the food which remains to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has sealed him." They said therefore to him, "What must we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." They said therefore to him, "What then do you do for a sign, that we may see, and believe you? What work do you do? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness. As it is written, 'He gave them bread out of heaven{Greek and Hebrew use the same word for "heaven", "the heavens", "the sky", and "the air".} to eat.'" Jesus therefore said to them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, it wasn't Moses who gave you the bread out of heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to him, "Lord, always give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But I told you that you have seen me, and yet you don't believe. All those who the Father gives me will come to me. Him who comes to me I will in no way throw out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." The Jews therefore murmured concerning him, because he said, "I am the bread which came down out of heaven." They said, "Isn't this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then does he say, 'I have come down out of heaven?'" Therefore Jesus answered them, "Don't murmur among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'They will all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh." The Jews therefore contended with one another, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Jesus therefore said to them, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don't have life in yourselves. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he who feeds on me, he will also live because of me. This is the bread which came down out of heaven-- not as our fathers ate the manna, and died. He who eats this bread will live forever." These things he said in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Therefore many of his disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying! Who can listen to it?" But Jesus knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life. But there are some of you who don't believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who didn't believe, and who it was who would betray him. He said, "For this cause have I said to you that no one can come to me, unless it is given to him by my Father." At this, many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, "You don't also want to go away, do you?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and know that you are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

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The explanation that is presented comes from the Aristotelian "form and substance" theory of matter, which the early scholastics that wrote this considered to be truth. Through scientific development we now have superceded the outdated theory and view matter as atomic substance, but the eucharist is still as much of a mystery under the modern theory as before. It can not be logically explained away because then it would cease to be a miracle.

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Hence, the essential reason why Catholics are not guilty of cannibalism is the fact that we do not receive our Lord in a cannibalistic form. We receive him in the form of bread and wine

This is what I wanted to convey last time even if I misused the term "metaphorically", that the Eucharist is not a cannibalistic ritual (which was a common Roman slander against the early Christians)

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I know. :@nuclearshillpat: I think most lay Catholics who have ever tried to explain the fricking Eucharist have accidentally uttered blasphemy at one point or another. IRL I have to pause and choose my words carefully to avoid it even after spending years engaging with apologetics. Without defining terms to begin the fricking discussion it's fruitless to try to go back and forth on the fricking subject, anyway.

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I'm sure if the pope didn't try and keep everyone illiterate for a few thousand years and gatekeep the bible, then there would be more lay catholics who could read properly and not blaspheme. Then again, the pope is the antichrist. !lutherans


Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.

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@Aevann please free @HailVictory1776 because Guvnuh here keeps trying to engage me as if I'm him. Clearly we both miss him dearly. :marseytears:

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However, the fricking accidents of bread and wine (size, weight, taste, texture) do remain. Hence, the fricking essential reason why Catholics are not fricking guilty of cannibalism is the fricking fact that we do not receive our Lord in a fricking cannibalistic form. We receive him in the fricking form of bread and wine.

By this logic Impossible Burger is not vegan/vegetarian. While the essence is plant matter, the taste and texture are that of meat and make the consumer a bloodmouth carnist.

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If God miraculously changed the fricking substance to be beef under the fricking accidents of plant matter you'd be correct. As it is, the fricking presentation (appearance, texture, flavor additives) of the fricking plant matter would be the fricking accidents. It's too early in the fricking morning for me to not respond earnestly, I know you're joking around. :marseyautism:

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Jesus Christ: substance is Son of Man's meat and blood, accidents are bread and wine -> accidents win, you're not a cannibal.

Vegetarian burger: substance veggies, accidents beef and bun -> accidents win, you're not a vegetarian.

If there existed a pseudo-vegetarian burger, that tastes like tofu but is actually animal protein, by your logic eating that would be vegetarian.

That actually makes some sense under the Jewish doctrine of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marit_ayin but it's one heck of a stretch still.

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So the "transubstatiation" is spiritual and not about matter?

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"Matter" in terms of how scientific measures would be fricking able to see it, no, it is fricking still under the fricking accidents of bread and wine. "Matter" in terms of the fricking true substance, yes, it has been transformed.

The fricking Orthodox hate transubstantiation as a fricking term because it forces everyone into these debates instead of just defaulting to saying it's a fricking Mystery of the fricking Faith. Sometimes I wonder if they're right. :marseythinkorino:

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Also that Marit ayin principle is not absolute and doesn't apply in certain cases. For example, it is known how one rabbi was walking somewhere on a Saturday and suddenly saw a wallet on the ground. However you look at it, picking up the wallet would be work, both by exertion spent and by profit received, so that would be a sin. But rabbi prayed to G-d with all his heart and a miracle happened: in that immediate area the Saturday was momentarily transubstantiated into a Thursday, so the resourceful rabbi quickly picked up the wallet and that was not a sin.

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This is neat but I wonder why the priest cannot transubstantiate a kitten so I can spend quality time with Christ. Why do I have to consume him?

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:marseysquint: This feels like some kind of rhetorical trickery but I admit it makes sense

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https://i.rdrama.net/images/17271543556145442.webp

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what a jewy thing to say

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How so?

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Respecting corpses is the gayest tradition.

I still want to be buried though just with as many toxic chemicals in my corpse so I kill the plants around me post mortum

!edgelords

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I want to be thrown outside so everyone in my neighborhood gets to see vultures pick apart my corpse :marseythroatsinging: :marseythroatsinging: :marseythroatsinging:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/sky-burial

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Can i respect your corpse after your gone?

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You can mine

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!slots 690

Thank you and also drat i lost lol

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Yeah i want my biomatter to feed a swarm of malaria mosquitoes so i can spread death and disease after i have passed away.

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I want to be taxidermied but enhanced like didn't live my life as a disgusting blob

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My time to shine

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