Like many savvy drugchads, I use kratom a few times a week in lieu of drinking. I find it works very well for this purpose, and my weekly alcohol consumption is far lower than it used to be. For the uninitiated kratom is a plant native to Southeast Asia that produces mild opiate-like effects when ingested, and is at the moment federally unregulated. As far as I know it cannot be converted into an injectable or insufflatable form which limits its abuse potential, though it does have non-zero addiction liability. The last time I picked up some kratom capsules from my friendly neighborhood head shop, I was offered a free sample of a kava+kratom combination supplement drink. I have only tried kava once previously many years ago so I thought what the heck, might as well. Kava is some kind of "sociability enhancement" plant extract from the South Pacific that I don't know a whole lot about, other than that it is generally considered non-addictive (unlike kratom). It was a Botanic Tonics "Feel Free" 2oz shot. The label does not break down doses per drug beyond 2600mg of "proprietary blend" per 1oz serving.
I found this odd enough to warrant googling the product before consuming it, and I found I was not alone in my concern about the vague label. Much more worryingly, nearly every long term user report on this product claims it is ludicrously addictive.
This post is probably the most extensive,though there are others I will omit for brevity: https://old.reddit.com/r/kavakava/comments/t5wxtx/any_personal_thoughtsexperience_with_botanic/
Dozens of reddit comment chains detailing 10+ bottle/day dependence (so, what, 50g+ of kratom effective dose? ) and comparisons to heroin. Consumption of kratom in quantities this extreme is normally difficult-to-impossible to achieve with traditional powdered plant kratom; you'll vomit before you get anywhere near that amount. Unlike kratom by itself*, kava is immediately dangerous to consume in excess quantities on a regular basis so there are reports of addicts experiencing liver and skin problems as a result. Amidst the flailing and lamenting and speculation about unlisted dangerous additives, some blame users and addicts for not doing enough research on kratom before getting hooked on this supplement chalking all of the dramatic reports up to normal kratom effects. More on this later.
*still a bad idea, this is pretty deep into addict territory even if it won't necessarily hospitalize you on its own so long as you don't have a metabolic disorder
Someone created a support group sub for addicts just a few days ago: https://old.reddit.com/r/Quittingfeelfree/
The support sub is pretty amateur-hour, but contains some additional key information. Users claim it has been marketed to young adults and college students as an alcohol alternative (fair enough, a lot of people use kratom for this purpose including myself), often by social media (((influencer))) types. Their website also lists some official(?) endorsements from some pretty big name schools. Users claim its availability is not limited to smoke shops, and that it can be found at 7-11s nationwide (any millennial dramanauts remember k2 and how that ended up working out? ). User photos reveal that the label/formula has changed at least once, from 3500mg down to 2600mg. The product entered the market right around a year ago, and the company behind it has had comments on their social media profiles disabled for an unknown length of time.
Most critically: none of the marketing for this product mentions that it contains kratom. It is marketed as a kava-only supplement. Normies are buying this stuff without knowing about the kratom content, much less what kratom is and how to use it safely, and then being surprised that it is habit-forming. The only reference to kratom in any of their officially published content is the ingredients list label on the bottles and the screenshot of the same label on their website FAQ. Their website (which I won't link but is easily googleable) offers subscription services for the stuff, indicating they know darn well what they're doing. I would not have guessed that it contained any kratom when observing it on the store shelf, and I would have avoided it under the assumption that it was a snake oil supplement if not for the smoke shop employee explaining that it contains kratom.
I have to give these guys credit for pulling off a Juul-tier heist so far. Exploitation of unregulated addictive substances on this scale is not easy to pull off. The bottles retail for $10 each. The problem is that this will inevitably result in a blanket ban on kratom when someone at the NYT catches wind and writes a thinkpiece on how teh poor (college-aged) childwenz are getting hooked on this evil dwug.
I took half of the bottle while writing this, and other than taking effect a lot faster than I'm used to (~10 minutes vs 30-45+ minutes depending on my stomach contents) it feels pretty much exactly like normal kratom. IIRC shorter onset times correlate with greater addiction liability, so that may explain some of the hysteria over this. I dunno. All I do know is I'm gonna be really frickin buttmad when this inevitably results in a federal ban.
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Kratom is a plant native to ching chong land right?
Is it popular in S'pore (my guess is using it is punishable by death there so probably not) or just in the poorcel SEA countries like indonesia and phillipines
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lol i've not heard of anyone using it here but uhm drugs are bad and i definitely dont hang out with drug consuming criminals sweaty so you're asking the wrong person
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Thanks for the pin!
I had already been researching it for a day and concluded all of the negative reports were just people that haven't ever done kratom before lol
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Kratom can and will kill you. It is not harmless. You are taking a risk. Druggies see reality challenge impossible.
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Lmao frick off boomer
Next you're gonna be telling me the 500mg of caffiene and 200mg of modafanil I take every day is """harmful""" too
Stop being a kitty
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Caffeine and modafinil are not even slightly similar in terms of risk and addiction potential. Modafinil has no habituation whatsoever, caffeine does but that’s another story. You are completely r-slurred and I demand you keep yourself safe.
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do you even know what kratom is? Like are you being fr fr no cap rn? Besides being somewhat addictive it's completely harmless (and even helps actual fent/heroin addicts get clean afaict)
I dont even like kratom whatsoever, but your r-slurred and objectively inaccurate boomerspeak is making me
Feel free to provide a source of the # of people who have overdosed on exclusively kratom in the past couple years
Do you think weed is a heckin dangerous and deadly plant that kills gorillians of people too? Watch less reefer madness docs, boomer
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Cope
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Didn't call it harmless in the post, and not denying that at all (ctrl-f "addiction liability"). People do get hooked on it. I'm unaware of it killing anyone in its traditional powder form, though there have been cases of death involving concentrates/extracts or mixing it with other drugs/alcohol. It is entirely possible that death can somehow result from traditional consumption in isolation, but that is a risk I am willing to take in order to reduce my alcohol intake.
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it is harmless (which is why its such a shit drug), this guy is just being a girl peepee
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So you’re so dependent on substances that you HAVE to choose one?
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?
idk what to tell u bro, you're moralstragging in the drug discussion containment hole
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You've already made this post.
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I posted it as a draft a few hours before I published it, but those aren't supposed to be visible...
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Snapshots:
https://old.reddit.com/r/kavakava/comments/t5wxtx/any_personal_thoughtsexperience_with_botanic/:
undelete.pullpush.io
archive.org
ghostarchive.org
archive.ph (click to archive)
https://old.reddit.com/r/Quittingfeelfree/:
undelete.pullpush.io
archive.org
ghostarchive.org
archive.ph (click to archive)
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Kratom is very hit or miss for me. One batch will work, another doesn't do a thing.
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Yeah given the totally unregulated nature of the stuff there's a lot of variation. The brand of capsules I usually get are reasonably consistent but I've definitely gotten bunk batches before.
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Kratom is a shit drug for terminal degens who's numerous side effects outweigh just drinking and ill be happy when it's finally gone
It doesn't hold a candle to khat which is a drug wypipo rly b sleepin on
Do GHB like the punks used to if u wanna drink without drinking
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It helped me get off heroin once (though I ultimately relapsed)
This was back before concentrates though. It was just the leaf and it would frick up my stomach so much that I didn't use it longer than I needed to
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Lmao I can't say I've had particularly good experiences with recreational cathinones, all the ones I tried felt like dirty amphetamines
I'll grant it's possible that the OG method of consumption (chewing straight khat leaves) is better tho
My only side effects from kratom are the typical opiate ones (itchiness, dry mouth, mild nausea and headaches the next day if I take too much) and bowel funkiness if I take it on an empty stomach, and I don't give enough of a shit to try and find legitimate ghb or phenibut via dnms Just tryna save my liver
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Mephedrone was the best stimulant ever created. Its gone from the market now and I miss it
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I had a buddy bring back khat leaves and we sat around chewing and smoking swisher sweets and drinking red stripe, best upper experience to this day.
It's like a supercharged caffeine high without jitters or upset stomach and it goes away without leaving u strung out
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Alright, now I'm sold
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zoz
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zle
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zozzle
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try an antihistamine neighbor, I would highly recommend ketotifen but it's not available orally in the US except from compound pharmacies with prescription
phenibut is clearweb (so is ghb but it's a lot more sketch), here: https://liftmode.com/
I will say though that phenibut stock has been really inconsistent and harder to find recently, and liftmode's quality has dropped a good bit so expect it to go to dnms soon
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I never messed with kratom in my younger years but tried one of those shots about 2 years ago. Surprisingly a nice buzz even with a history, though I imagine not so much if your using anything heavy at the time. Huge help when it comes to slowing down or stopping booze.
Surprised its not already banned honestly. RIP ebay poppy pods.
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They (the DEA) have floated the idea of banning it at least a couple of times at this point, most recently I think in 2015ish. Got as far as the public comment stage but fizzled out after that. I am also confused as to how it hasn't been banned yet given their hair trigger when it comes to emergency-scheduling anything that becomes even slightly popular with the bath salts enjoyers. It's a nice option to have and I hope they don't ban it, but I could easily see this product or similar ones that fail to disclose their MoA pushing them over the edge
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Good. Smoke a real drug you queer.
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Just grow your own. Personally I'm not bothering with kratom toll I have money to spend on a 70% ppure mytragynine extract
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I would love to grow some but people say you end up with little or no mitragynine yield on plants grown outside of SEA for some reason. Haven't looked into it much tho.
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People get plenty of active Salvia homegrown don't worry. The difference is possible drying/fermentation/oxidation
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Good post, that linked reddit thread reminds me a lot of the spice epidemic in the uk, a dangerous substance that you can just buy at a gas station.
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We had the same problem here in the US! (I called it "k2" as it was commonly known here in the post.) The scary thing about k2/spice was that it was marketed as being "basically just marijuana", when it was in fact a very different family of compounds with very different (potentially deadly) effects.
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Kratom is funny because all the 17 to 18 year olds at my job talk about kratom bars and its the most hipster shit ive ever hard of but if it helps my favorite asian ween off the alchohol then i'm happy about it
Omg im so sihitfaced o thoyght chinu wrote this kgnore me
E: omg it wa shim pinning the post im so FRIKKIN DUMB
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Very interesting writeup, thanks. I hadn't heard of this specific brand. I've heard about kava and kratom being a good combo but haven't gotten around to trying it yet, and I think kratom extracts are a bit of a scam considering the usual prices for a single 4 hour dose (shit's almost as expensive as cocaine and a lot less euphoric). Also, 10 minute onset time? Probably just because it's an extract, right?
True, mainly because shorter onset usually correlates with higher peak effects and quicker offset, so you get an urge to re-dose. Theoretically though there should be a massive tolerance bump when taking an extract, to the point where it might cause you to need to take 1.5x the dose to feel the same effect just a few hours later. That's what people usually report when talking about kratom extracts. I wonder if the kava is somehow reducing the tolerance build-up? (Good thing these guys haven't figured out that you can just take 30mg of DXM an hour before taking kratom to almost completely reset your tolerance, lol)
Either way I've known kratom was next to the chopping block since I started seeing it advertised in every gas station. They usually have those shitty OPMS extract capsules and 'shots' which are just as bad as the OP shit but don't contain kava and aren't advertised to r-slurred kids on instagram. RIP kratom, in advance.
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I have avoided extracts myself for the same reasons (just wait the extra half hour for the powder to kick in lol it isn't complicated, and it's infinitely cheaper since I don't do it frequently enough to have a significant tolerance and can buy bulk capsules), so I'm not actually sure whether this was an extract product or not. I only had a single hash brown in my stomach when I took it so that may have also been a factor in the fast onset; I normally dose an hour or two after a full meal. It had the conspicuous texture of dissolved kratom powder, but the taste was so thoroughly masked by whatever they mix it in (pineapple juice and stevia I think?) that I couldn't evaluate it on taste. I suspect it was an extract because I assume the taste would be overwhelmingly strong if it wasn't.
No idea regarding the kava interactions, the 'nautwiki entry is still a sparsely written draft article and I haven't bothered looking into it further. I'll have to try the DXM tip if this thing ended up messing with my tolerance, thanks
I recognize those OPMS capsules but I've always gone for the cheaper options and wasn't even aware those were an extract product. Don't think I've ever seen their shots, but I haven't ever looked for them either.
This is gonna be what kills it. It's being shilled to naive upper middle class kids now, so once they start getting hooked en mass daddy government will be expected to "fix" it
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Are you feeling okay bud?
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n-not really
thanks for asking LPB
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Some enterprising entrepreneurs are selling a feel-good juice supplement that contains kratom without disclosing said kratom content, and the sheltered people they're marketing it to are getting addicted to it because it contains kratom. This is kinda based tbh but will probably attract negative media and government attention towards kratom if the product gets popular enough.
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I mean it doesn't look like anything has happened yet, just keep an eye on the news. It all depends on whether this product gets really popular or not
Could end up being a total nothingburger, this is hardly the first time I've been worried about it getting banned
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