I just found out about this submarine like an hour ago. I feel really bad for the people trapped inside, especially the kid, but they kinda deserve it for even getting on this thing. Everyone's laughing at the CEO for his dumbass DEI policies, but this is just surface level stuff (lol). No one's actually explained the depths of how r-slurred this guy and his company are, so I thought I'd take some time out of my actual engineering job while I'm sitting in a boring butt zoom meeting to properly call this guy a fricking r-slur, so you can all find this just as funny as I do. I thought you all might appreciate it a little more than just some sporadic tweets about the DEI shit he did. This is going to be like a Challenger-style breakdown and what exactly went wrong so you can appreciate this frick-up.
There's gonna be a lot of naval puns in this so bear with me here. A lot of this is coming from my friend, also an engineer, who's done more research into this than I have.
In the Boatginning
Dramatards, I'd like to introduce you to Stockton Rush. Owner of the the most startup founder-ish name in history, this guy has been making janky submarines his entire life. He got his start in the aerospace industry, as a test engineer on the F-15 with McDonnell-Douglass. Anyone familiar with the industry will note that experience with McDonnell-Douglass is not necessarily a good thing on your resume.
He's made a career out of building submarines that are cheaper and more accessible to the general population, and his company, OceanGate, has had a few successful designs. What's notable about his history, however, is that he's made them cheaper largely by bypassing safety standards. His first submarine that they operated was called Antipodes, was a refit sub built by a different company. Originally intended for research purposes, they used it instead for tourist dives.
The first actual submarine they built was the Cyclops 1, a carbon-fiber (we'll come back to this part) submarine controlled using a PlayStation controller, with an operational depth of 500m. The submarine is deployed/recovered from some weird floating drydock concept, which crucially allows them to not use human rated cranes to recover the submarine.
After seeing some moderate success, he's gone and built the submarine in question, the Titan, which is built from a composite carbon-fiber and titanium. They bought the hull from a company called Spencer Composites, who intended it to be SINGLE USE. The submarine was built to a factor-of-safety (multiple of how much of the expected load you can withstand before it breaks) of 2.25 (which is frick-all, especially for a submarine - should be at least 6, probably more like 10). . A lot of journ*lists who went on board the thing noted that most of the parts on the interior were sourced from local hardware stores, as were the ballast tanks. They were not, as you could imagine, comfortable about being on board once they realized this.
DEI-ing At Sea
https://x.com/CatchUpFeed/status/1671372796876984320?s=20
This guy's team is a bunch of young, impressionable diversity hires. He's explicitly avoided anyone with experience because they are old and white and men. They're not very inspirational, and so they don't have a place on Rush's team.
Anyone who has worked on an engineering project before knows that any engineer with less than 2 years of practical experience is a massive drain on the project and need to be babysat constantly, ESPECIALLY if they might kill someone. They're usually worth investing in because they'll give you a great return in the long run, but boy are those first couple of years hard.
I didn’t hire experienced people because I’m a racist
oh no my boat sank, how could this have possibly happened
This is going to go a long way to explain why what happened did happen, so buckle up.
Frick-up #1: Carboat-Fiber
Let's talk materials for a second. Carbon-fiber is what's called a composite material, because it's made from a couple of different types of material. You have the carbon fibers themselves, which are really resistant to being stretched in-plane (like pulling apart a sheet of paper), but have very little strength out of plane (like poking a hole in paper) or off-axis (they're woven into almost a cloth, if you pull at a 60 degree angle to that weave, they lose 80% of their strength).
Carbon fibers are usually set in place with solidified plastics, like epoxy. It solves a lot of problems as far as directional strength goes, but you still need to be careful with it. In a specific configuration, it has similar material properties to a common aerospace aluminium alloy (T-6061), while being a fraction of the weight. Great for airplanes and race cars, where mass is a factor.
Steel is the best material, and the only reason you use anything else is either because you don't want it to rust, or because you can't use steel. It's cheap, strong, and (crucially) it can be stressed over and over again without building up stress fractures. If you keep it under a certain limit, it will never break. NO OTHER MATERIAL DOES THIS.
This makes ideal for something that you're going to put under pressure, and then remove it from that pressure, over and over and over again, in a scenario where weight isn't a factor. Like, say, a submarine.
Stockton Rush, however, is way too cool for steel . He has instead decided to build his submarine out of the super cool airplane material, without understanding why its there in the first place. Composite materials are generally vulnerable to snapping if they're loaded repeatedly, which is why the company that built this refused to endorse it after finding out it was going to be used like it was.
It's never been used on submarines before, and with really good reason. It's not just not an optimal choice, it's literally the worst one possible. From the Business Insider article:
The Titan sub was never checked to see if it was up to standard because of its "innovation," OceanGate said in 2019. The sub features a carbon fiber hull that had never been used on submersibles before, according to the "Unsung Science" podcast.
Rush managed to bypass safety standards yet again by using completely different materials and then claiming that the standards aren't relevant. They make you sign a massive waiver when you sign up. No one has actually checked if this thing is safe. There's no standard it's being held to, there's no regulation, no third-party review. No matter how good you are, you can always frick up. Their cavalier attitude towards safety has now probably killed the CEO and four other people.
From their blog:
But it's ok, because they have a corporate culture of safety.
Frick-up #2: Electronixed
So this is an interesting note that I found is that the submarine has no onboard navigational system,. Yes, you read that correctly. They operate it by having a different ship monitor its position, and then send it text messages telling it where it is.
These people are all going to die
That's part of the reason they can't find it, is because the submarine doesn't know where it is, and can't tell anyone even if it did. It even failed before, and they still didn't fix it. That's not just stupid, it's criminally negligent.
The controls of this thing consist of a single button, and is piloted by a PlayStation controller. I'll point out that the idea of using a gamepad as a submarine helm control is not necessarily a bad one, and was actually implemented by USN submariners to great success. It's intuitive to zoomer helmsmen, really easy to teach, and was actually a way better control scheme than what they were using before. That being said, USN submarines are extremely well designed, very redundant, and extremely well-built. This stupid thing has none of that.
Because of the lack of navigation and emergency beacon, these people are very likely going to die, and it's going to be very unpleasant. It's really hard to find submarines even when they want to be found, and there's still no means of even rescuing these people even if they're found. They've got anti-submarine-warfare aircraft searching and everything, but still nothing.
Frick-up #3: Oxy-Constants
I can't think of a good pun for this. There's no real good source on this that I've seen because it's kind of an obscure problem, but they also fricked up the gas lines on the ship.
When maintaining an atmosphere for people to breathe, you have to be pretty careful with the gas composition. You need gas cyclers to remove CO2 buildup, and replace it with oxygen. Nitrogen doesn't need to be replaced because it's not consumed. This is standard on airplanes, submarines, spacecraft, anything sealed. Failure to do this was infamously the cause of the Apollo 1 disaster, where a pure, high-pressure oxygen atmosphere caused a dramatic fire when some nylon started to overheat.
Can you guess what OceanGate have done?
That's right, they've been injecting pure oxygen into the cabin, with untested electronics on board.
Jesus Christ, guys. You get so many startup CEOs bitching about safety standards, and every now and then when they push the limits, we all get a very public reminder of why they're there in the first place. And it usually costs the lives of people who were tricked into getting onto that stupid butt vehicle in the first place.
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I'm just happy about any opportunity to use my favorite Marsey.
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ok so that’s the gayest marsey we have
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salty seamen
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pirate chads rise up! and thats the tea, sis
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Toot toot b-words
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What handsome seamen!
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My favorite part of this is imagining the actual expert engineer they hired and then fired because he kept insisting this was a fricking death trap lmao
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It's literally the Challenger moment here. This one's going to be taught in classes for a while haha
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Engineering ethics profs when they see a preventable tragedy
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All the engineering ethics classes are too busy talking about white supremacy and cishetero-patriarchy to bother with silly things like that.
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And then they tried suing him for mentioning it, claiming that it being a death trap was a "trade secret".
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Link?
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https://abc7ny.com/missing-titanic-sub-oceangate-lawsuit-david-lochridge-submersible/13409850/
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the quotes in this article are so much worse than "getting sued":
Just never trust until others have done it. Even here, journos apparently said no upon seeing hardware store fittings
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good lord its so bad
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I love that rDrama has everything from engineers, to schizos, to merchandise stockers, to lawyers, to programmers ... etc. etc. all here for the drama.
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A safety factor of 2.25 on a submarine is crazy. When I worked on merchant ships our cargo gear had a SWL with a factor of 6-7 and that was for just lifting pallets of cargo out of the hold, not for going 2 darned miles underwater.
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what's a good use case for safety factor 2
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Aircraft generally have the lowest factor of safety of all structures, and that's a minimum of 1.5, set by the FAA. You can't really get it much higher without losing the ability to fly. That's why aircraft have such an extreme level of regulation and oversight, because the margins are so thin. You don't usually see FS that low on anything else. Usually it ranges from 5-10 depending on cost and risk, and can go up into the 100s for things like buildings.
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ONE FIFTY FOUR
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They let Kim Jung-Il watch.
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There are some components on the emergency shut downs on reactors that are below 1. Its a fatigue life FOS, not a static FOS. One cycle of the component and they need to be replaced.
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If your only other options are certain death, a safety factor of 2 is a significant upgrade
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Most guns are proofed to 1.5-2x their normal chamber pressure, but that's because even the hottest normal cartridges shouldn't be more than 1 standard deviation over their stated pressure. Bubba's Pissin' Hot Hand Loads notwithstanding.
Similarly, if a person you dislike is going bungee jumping, a safety factor of 2 should be fine.
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Even in show business the turnbuckles, shackles, and aircraft cable are rated way beyond advertised limits and objects are hung with more hardware than needed so you don't get shit like this happening
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im literally screaming, excellent writeup!
ok so do you have any idea why they used carbon fiber instead of the cheaper and more durable steel?
im literally screaming, it seems to me the most likely thing that happened is the carbon fiber cracked under the pressure and catastrophically imploded, i doubt theyre alive
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Literally this.
Any trade study (analysis method for picking stuff, like design or materials) would have picked steel as a clear winner in any circumstance. It hasn't necessarily cracked yet, they can apparently hear banging from inside it from the search craft . Although every pressure vessel will have cracks in it, that's just the nature of the beast. But if it's going to crack slightly, you want it to be metal, where it won't necessarily spread, instead of composites, which will shatter the entire thing.
I just wanted to illustrate the full depth of the frick-up. There's some claims floating around that the design is fundamentally good, but it's new technology, and I really want to show you how astronomically r-slurred this whole operation was. There is no scenario in which if the CEO lives through this, he does not spend the rest of his life in prison. Probably after getting hauled before a Congressional tribunal first to make a public example of him.
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the performance criteria doesnt call for a lightweight material, carbon fibre makes no sense. this is like reinventing the wheel, but it being a hexagon instead of a circle.
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my heart is telling me hexagons are like, so cool!
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VERY foid comment
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literally, its a good award
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more like a square, sis but its whatever
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my heart is telling me they heard banging noises somewhere, theres no guarantee that its from the submarine
im literally screaming, they didnt find anything when they searched the area the noises came from
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Oh wow. If that's the case, probably loss of craft due to fire or pressure hull failure. Both are honestly preferable to suffocating to death
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i think id rather suffocate than burn to death but thats just me but go off i guess
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Burning to death doesn't take 5 days
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neither does suffocating once CO2 gets to toxic levels
in the ideal case, they have backup lithium hydroxide and wont die until they completely run out of oxygen, and that type of anoxia is painless but go off
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Burning to death takes minutes, they have a few days of air and get to spend those few days in constant mortal terror.
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Don’t forget the latrine is in there so in the event it didn’t catastrophically implode, they are slowly suffocating in the bottom of a music festival porta potty
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literally, id rather be scared and not in pain with a chance for rescue rather than being in horrific pain from being burned alive
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stop screaming you're going to use up all the oxygen
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What about titanium? I know the Russian military has (had?) submarines with a titanium hull. Do they just need to make it extra strong, or limit the lifespan of the sub or something?
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I got marisfied lol, bear with me here. There's a number of benefits to titanium yeah. It's really a choice of what you want to do with it, honestly. Generally steel is an excellent material for most things, and unless it flies, it's what you should reach for first.
Titanium is stronger and ligher, so resists pressure better than steel does. Practically speaking, it lets you dive deeper and stay there. It's also much more resistant to corrosion from seawater than steel is, because of rust. It's also non-magnetic, which is neat.
The US doesn't have a lot of titanium, and the Russians have loads. Titanium is also a big pain in the butt to machine (steel isn't, more points for steel). A big part of steel's benefit is that it's an inherently flexible material.
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But what about the stress fracture thing from repeated strain? Is titanium susceptible to that?
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That's part of the drawback yeah. Generally cracks are identified, monitored, and the component is replaced when it hits a certain size. It happens on aircraft all the time. All airliners undergo what's called a D-check at certain numbers of flight hours, and the entire aircraft is basically gutted to do this. It's very expensive, but part of the reason why plane crashes are now rare.
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You can check my D baby
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ok but what about gold?, karen
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isnt titanium also quite a bit more expensive when compared to steel? and thats the tea, sis
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ok so r-slur
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It is by weight just not volume
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i feel like while true, thats never what these poser as r-slurs mean
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Most of them didn't implode so it seems like it's a better choice than carbon fiber, at least
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The USSR commissioned the titanium Alfa-class in 1971. The US commissioned the steel Los Angeles-class in 1972.
The Alfa-class was fully retired by 1996. There are 26 Los Angeles-classes still in commission.
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But were they retired because the titanium had accumulated too much wear, or because the crew had spilled too much vodka in the reactor?
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The Alfa Class boat is the best example of why the Soviet Union was a failure
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Honestly that’s probably for the best, can you imagine dying slowly at the bottom of the ocean in the darkness?
Good way to fake your death, though. But why would a bunch of very rich people want to do that
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If I was rich and wanted to fake my death I'd just have a helicopter crash. This just makes it much more difficult to hide. No one knew their faces before.
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That's not Chadly enough, I would need some sort of car jump + base jumping thing with a big explosion
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Pressure differential is a thing but once its cracked the high pressure will move to low pressure (pop a hole in an O2 tank and all the O2 will move out to the lower pressure atmosphere around it). If you have a hole big enough, water gets in fast and their heads will be squeezed to a fraction of its normal size by tons of water pressure quickly and kill them in seconds. If slow water entry then theyll drown and get squeezed as pressure slowly equalizes between the subs interior and the ocean. Alternatively they'll burn in a fire or at worst starve.
This is all just unchecked conjecture on my end and since i post here I'm an r-slur so could be wrong. I know that theoreticall if you just swam down thay crushing of the body would happen but not entirely sure if it would just out of instant exposure at the seafloor
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Theres an old mythbusters episode where they rapidly depressurise one of those old metal diving suits with a ballistic gel dummy inside. The dummy pretty much exploded but you couldn't see much cos the mock blood filled the helmet visor. Not a fun way to go
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If its quick I'll take it over starvation, fire and drowning
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and that was orders of magnitude less pressure than this situation lol
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look up the byford dolphin accident, karen
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This is one of my favorite party fun facts. People get legitimately mind broken when they find out that steel springs are literally immortal, and that properly oiled machinery doesn’t actually “wear out,” the supporting systems do.
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can you explain this to me? i dont know much about engineering but i had a bit of materials science in my physics course, and isnt any metal (or any material really) capable of elastically recovering from stress as long as the force didnt exceed the threshold for plastic deformation? i thought thats how it works, and metals, especially steel, just have a very high threshold that they can sustain before irreversibly deforming? but its whatever
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It's about fatigue, which is mostly unrelated to the elastic limit. Basically all materials get weaker and weaker with each stress cycle as tiny cracks form and propagate. Steel, however, has infinite fatigue life if kept under a certain limit.
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omg! wow, thats interesting, and by fatigue do you mean all those lattice defects and displacements, or is it something more macroscopic? fascinating stuff really, makes me wonder why is it steel specifically that has this property but not other materials
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im literally screaming, now show the chart for cf and youll see where it doesnt cross over until such a lifecycle thar no submarine will ever see
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Steel straight up just doesn’t have a fatigue limit. Every other material eventually wares out even with small amounts stress.
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https://rdrama.net/post/180842/marseysailor-das-tuub-titanic-rsluration/4405249#context
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that answered pretty much literally all questions i had, thanks!!!
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Coming soon. Like really soon -
Also the step son is now famous.
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Kids gonna be rich in about a week.
Gotta let 'em know.
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that neighbor needs to go rescue his father from the belly of a whale at the bottom of the ocean smdh and thats the tea, sis
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I'm curious... how did McDonnell Douglass kill American space and civil innovation?
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Short version
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That's nice sweaty. Why don't you have a seat in the time out corner with Pizzashill until you calm down, then you can have your Capri Sun.
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You gotta be pooping me. IIRC the vast majority of submarine losses in peacetime were due to fire and this r-slur fills his little boat with pure oxygen?
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haters gonna hate but go off
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i fricking love this award
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That and, IIRC, the door on Apollo 1 opened inwards, so if there was higher pressure inside than outside, you straight up couldn't open it. Kinda like how old theaters use to have inward-facing exterior doors, before some theater fires finally set people straight and got them caring about safety.
Yeah, they obviously couldn't leave the craft due to pressure. Do we even have (actual, real, military) submarines that go that deep? I thought military submarines were designed to go deep enough to (somewhat) evade detection by the enemy, not to scout the sea floor. I suppose, hypothetically, they could try tugging them back to the surface? But that leads to a bunch of other issues, and besides, at this point you'd really only be dragging up some corpses.
As a side note about steel, steel is so fricking good that it's what SpaceX is using for their new rockets, despite the weight. And that's an application where weight is super important and they figure it's still worth the (weight) cost to use steel. Not using steel in a submarine is just... well it makes no fricking sense.
Anyways great writeup, definitely covers more details than the other threads.
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Aaah this entire debacle has been excruciating for me because I know quite a bit about military submarines but can’t say anything about them in comparison because the navy will get my butt. I want the glowies assigned to watch me to commend me for my remarkable dedication to keeping state secrets.
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Even the foids here are schizos
Do you hope a handsome glowie is your personal wrangler?
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I hope she wears a tie and has red hair
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Where do sailors go to have gay s*x on a submarine without getting caught??
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Yeah, I've never worked on them but a good friend of mine has. I'm sure the stuff he's told me is general enough that it's okay to say but I'm not 100% sure and definitely don't want to get anyone in trouble.
The only thing I'll say is that the safety factor they use is well in excess of 2.25.
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Thank you for your cervix
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I’m not in the Gayvy but I did come very close to being a fitter on nuclear aircraft carriers.
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And now you provide us with bellaposts instead
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Just post it on the secret rdrama groomercord and no one will ever find out
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I'm going to model submarines incorrectly in War Thunder
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I think there's some that are able to tap cables on the ocean floor, but IDK if that's comparable depths, marine shit isn't really my area of expertise. I think the USN would probably rather let these people die than reveal if they could reach it though.
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Nordstearm wasn't that deep. Also USN could go down and give the pop can a nudge, and swear them to secrecy if they float up.
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I don't think so because of engineering reasons. going to Titanic wreckage depths is not practical because it makes comms impossible (unless you trail a shielded cable). anyway, acoustic silence at 200 yards depth seems way more valuable than going super deep because you can get info from satellites. also tapping cables doesn't have to be that deep, lots of mileage available next to the continents
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only thing that makes sense from a reusability standpoint. even aluminum will fail sooner than later from stress fractures. it's so weird to make a weird composite submarine when every aspect of steel, from the weight to the durability, is ideal for a sub
Putting the in
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If steel is so great, why is the Titanic sitting beside the flattened pop-can of a Titan🤔
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Because it rammed headlong into a fricking iceberg.
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my heart is telling me actually if they hit it headfirst it would have been fine!
im literally screaming, they scraped along the side of it, ripping open a huge tear in the side of the ship which completely flooded it
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Ice(((berg)))
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Fact check: mostly false.
While the Titanic did in fact come into contact with an iceberg, it was not "headlong". Additionally, the Titanic sinking is more accurately attributed to a loss of bouyancy.
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Ours? I know a a guy that was on the Sturgeon and their limit is like 1900-2000 ft. But those are nuclear attack subs. Some other ones like the soviet k-278 can hit 4k but those are still a fraction to the depth of where they were.
Submersibles are smaller and can handle the crushing depths (when made with the right materials) better than a larger sub. But they're basically like little capsules. There is so such "rescue" submersible that can transfer people out of a broken one into the rescue one.
They're fricked.
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What about Elon’s child sized submarine!
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Just gotta get the spooks on the case
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